Esteemed SIGCIS members, Which are the indispensable histories (and/or shorter historical essays) of cybernetics that touch on its social context? I'm particularly interested in the influence of self-styled cyberneticians on those playing a directive function in private enterprise (industrial/process engineers, managers, etc.) and vice versa. This question was prompted by a (characteristically!) gnomic remark of Wiener's in *The Human Use of Human Beings*, in which he appears to be quite fluent in "Taylorist" idiom: "The notion of programming in the factory had already become familiar through the work of Taylor and the Gilbreths on time study, and was ready to be transferred to the machine. This offered considerable difficulty of detail, but no great difficulty of principle." (p150) Cheers, Bjorn
I streamed a Cybernetics Conference in NYC late last year. You might find something in there. https://livestream.com/internetsociety2/cybercon On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 6:27 PM, Bjorn Westergard <bjornw@gmail.com> wrote:
Esteemed SIGCIS members,
Which are the indispensable histories (and/or shorter historical essays) of cybernetics that touch on its social context?
I'm particularly interested in the influence of self-styled cyberneticians on those playing a directive function in private enterprise (industrial/process engineers, managers, etc.) and vice versa.
This question was prompted by a (characteristically!) gnomic remark of Wiener's in *The Human Use of Human Beings*, in which he appears to be quite fluent in "Taylorist" idiom:
"The notion of programming in the factory had already become familiar through the work of Taylor and the Gilbreths on time study, and was ready to be transferred to the machine. This offered considerable difficulty of detail, but no great difficulty of principle." (p150)
Cheers, Bjorn
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/ listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
-- --------------------------------------------------------------- Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast -------------------------------------------------------------- -
Among the many other things, be sure not to miss the directive function in private life exemplified by Frank B. Gilbreth, Jr. and Ernestine Gilbreth Carey, Cheaper by the Dozen (New York: Thomas Y. Cromwell, 1948), which was made into a movie by that title (1950), then remade (2003). Also, lurking in the background is, of course, the literature on automation (Diebold, Zuboff et al), but that's rather far afield? I assume Stafford Beer is on your list. Yours, WM On 28/06/2018 23:27, Bjorn Westergard wrote:
Esteemed SIGCIS members,
Which are the indispensable histories (and/or shorter historical essays) of cybernetics that touch on its social context?
I'm particularly interested in the influence of self-styled cyberneticians on those playing a directive function in private enterprise (industrial/process engineers, managers, etc.) and vice versa.
This question was prompted by a (characteristically!) gnomic remark of Wiener's in /The Human Use of Human Beings/, in which he appears to be quite fluent in "Taylorist" idiom:
"The notion of programming in the factory had already become familiar through the work of Taylor and the Gilbreths on time study, and was ready to be transferred to the machine. This offered considerable difficulty of detail, but no great difficulty of principle." (p150)
Cheers, Bjorn
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
-- Willard McCarty (www.mccarty.org.uk/), Professor emeritus, Department of Digital Humanities, King's College London; Adjunct Professor, Western Sydney University; Editor, Interdisciplinary Science Reviews (www.tandfonline.com/loi/yisr20)
Hi Bjorn, This book by GE on cybernetics may be of interest. Try and find a copy with the cover intact, it's a gorgeous illustration. Title. The next step in management : an appraisal of cybernetics. Publisher. General Electric Company (GE). Extent. viii, 193 p. Best, b On 29/06/2018, 11:29, "Members on behalf of Willard McCarty" <members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org on behalf of willard.mccarty@mccarty.org.uk> wrote: Among the many other things, be sure not to miss the directive function in private life exemplified by Frank B. Gilbreth, Jr. and Ernestine Gilbreth Carey, Cheaper by the Dozen (New York: Thomas Y. Cromwell, 1948), which was made into a movie by that title (1950), then remade (2003). Also, lurking in the background is, of course, the literature on automation (Diebold, Zuboff et al), but that's rather far afield? I assume Stafford Beer is on your list. Yours, WM On 28/06/2018 23:27, Bjorn Westergard wrote: > Esteemed SIGCIS members, > > Which are the indispensable histories (and/or shorter historical essays) > of cybernetics that touch on its social context? > > I'm particularly interested in the influence of self-styled > cyberneticians on those playing a directive function in private > enterprise (industrial/process engineers, managers, etc.) and vice versa. > > This question was prompted by a (characteristically!) gnomic remark of > Wiener's in /The Human Use of Human Beings/, in which he appears to be > quite fluent in "Taylorist" idiom: > > "The notion of programming in the factory had already become familiar > through the work of Taylor and the Gilbreths on time study, and was > ready to be transferred to the machine. This offered considerable > difficulty of detail, but no great difficulty of principle." (p150) > > Cheers, > Bjorn > > > _______________________________________________ > This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org > -- Willard McCarty (www.mccarty.org.uk/), Professor emeritus, Department of Digital Humanities, King's College London; Adjunct Professor, Western Sydney University; Editor, Interdisciplinary Science Reviews (www.tandfonline.com/loi/yisr20) _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
Hi, Bjorn. The work in systems analysis of Ben S. Graham, Sr., at Standard Register starting in the 1940s might be relevant. Strong ties to Taylor and the Glibreths. Graham explicitly employed cybernetic concepts and worked with the Gilbreths and W. E. Deming. I can send you some info on this if you'd like. - Bill ________________________________ From: Members [members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org] on behalf of Bjorn Westergard [bjornw@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2018 6:27 PM To: members Subject: [SIGCIS-Members] Cybernetics and Industry Esteemed SIGCIS members, Which are the indispensable histories (and/or shorter historical essays) of cybernetics that touch on its social context? I'm particularly interested in the influence of self-styled cyberneticians on those playing a directive function in private enterprise (industrial/process engineers, managers, etc.) and vice versa. This question was prompted by a (characteristically!) gnomic remark of Wiener's in The Human Use of Human Beings, in which he appears to be quite fluent in "Taylorist" idiom: "The notion of programming in the factory had already become familiar through the work of Taylor and the Gilbreths on time study, and was ready to be transferred to the machine. This offered considerable difficulty of detail, but no great difficulty of principle." (p150) Cheers, Bjorn
Hi Bjorn Your line of inquiry sounds super interesting, I’d love to know what you find. I’ll echo the recommendation to trace Stafford Beer. There’s a helpful chapter about him in Andrew Pickering’s The Cybernetic Brain. Also following Gordon Pask’s lineage to practitioners such as Paul Pangaro and Hugh Dubberly might make sense. Both have worked to transmit cybernetic ideas to major industrial players. I believe interactions of the ACM ran a piece by Dubberly a few years back with diagrams showing how cybernetic thinking applied to the product design and innovation processes. They’re quite beautiful and deserving of scholarly analysis. Happy to chat offline if it’s useful. Best Erica Erica Robles-Anderson Associate Professor Media, Culture, and Communication New York University erica.robles@nyu.edu @fstflofscholars
On Jun 29, 2018, at 9:41 AM, McMillan, William W <william.mcmillan@cuaa.edu> wrote:
Hi, Bjorn.
The work in systems analysis of Ben S. Graham, Sr., at Standard Register starting in the 1940s might be relevant. Strong ties to Taylor and the Glibreths. Graham explicitly employed cybernetic concepts and worked with the Gilbreths and W. E. Deming.
I can send you some info on this if you'd like.
- Bill
________________________________ From: Members [members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org] on behalf of Bjorn Westergard [bjornw@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2018 6:27 PM To: members Subject: [SIGCIS-Members] Cybernetics and Industry
Esteemed SIGCIS members,
Which are the indispensable histories (and/or shorter historical essays) of cybernetics that touch on its social context?
I'm particularly interested in the influence of self-styled cyberneticians on those playing a directive function in private enterprise (industrial/process engineers, managers, etc.) and vice versa.
This question was prompted by a (characteristically!) gnomic remark of Wiener's in The Human Use of Human Beings, in which he appears to be quite fluent in "Taylorist" idiom:
"The notion of programming in the factory had already become familiar through the work of Taylor and the Gilbreths on time study, and was ready to be transferred to the machine. This offered considerable difficulty of detail, but no great difficulty of principle." (p150)
Cheers, Bjorn _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
Erica Thanks for the mention. I think the articles you refer to from ACM are this one <http://www.dubberly.com/articles/what-is-interaction.html> and this one <http://www.dubberly.com/articles/what-is-conversation.html>. There are many more about systems and design on Hugh Dubberly’s site <http://www.dubberly.com/articles>, a rich trove. A summary of our connecting design and cybernetics is here <http://www.dubberly.com/articles/cybernetics-and-design.html>. More relationships between cybernetics, computing, counterculture, and interaction design are here <http://www.dubberly.com/articles/cybernetics-and-counterculture.html>. Per my prior offer privately to Bjorn, if others on this list are looking for specific references or have specific questions, please feel free to write me. Best, -Paul ###
On Jul 4, 2018, at 10:08 AM, Erica Robles-Anderson <ewoka823@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bjorn
Your line of inquiry sounds super interesting, I’d love to know what you find. I’ll echo the recommendation to trace Stafford Beer. There’s a helpful chapter about him in Andrew Pickering’s The Cybernetic Brain. Also following Gordon Pask’s lineage to practitioners such as Paul Pangaro and Hugh Dubberly might make sense. Both have worked to transmit cybernetic ideas to major industrial players. I believe interactions of the ACM ran a piece by Dubberly a few years back with diagrams showing how cybernetic thinking applied to the product design and innovation processes. They’re quite beautiful and deserving of scholarly analysis. Happy to chat offline if it’s useful.
Best
Erica
Erica Robles-Anderson Associate Professor Media, Culture, and Communication New York University erica.robles@nyu.edu <mailto:erica.robles@nyu.edu> @fstflofscholars
On Jun 29, 2018, at 9:41 AM, McMillan, William W <william.mcmillan@cuaa.edu <mailto:william.mcmillan@cuaa.edu>> wrote:
Hi, Bjorn.
The work in systems analysis of Ben S. Graham, Sr., at Standard Register starting in the 1940s might be relevant. Strong ties to Taylor and the Glibreths. Graham explicitly employed cybernetic concepts and worked with the Gilbreths and W. E. Deming.
I can send you some info on this if you'd like.
- Bill
________________________________ From: Members [members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org <mailto:members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org>] on behalf of Bjorn Westergard [bjornw@gmail.com <mailto:bjornw@gmail.com>] Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2018 6:27 PM To: members Subject: [SIGCIS-Members] Cybernetics and Industry
Esteemed SIGCIS members,
Which are the indispensable histories (and/or shorter historical essays) of cybernetics that touch on its social context?
I'm particularly interested in the influence of self-styled cyberneticians on those playing a directive function in private enterprise (industrial/process engineers, managers, etc.) and vice versa.
This question was prompted by a (characteristically!) gnomic remark of Wiener's in The Human Use of Human Beings, in which he appears to be quite fluent in "Taylorist" idiom:
"The notion of programming in the factory had already become familiar through the work of Taylor and the Gilbreths on time study, and was ready to be transferred to the machine. This offered considerable difficulty of detail, but no great difficulty of principle." (p150)
Cheers, Bjorn _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org <http://sigcis.org/>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ <http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/> and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org <http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org>
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
Bjorn, This might be outside your realm of interest, but the classic piece of scholarship on cybernetics in the Soviet Union, where the concept played an important historical role, is Slava Gerovitch’s book From Newspeak to Cyberspeak. https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/newspeak-cyberspeak best, Barbara Barbara Walker Associate Professor Department of History/308 University of Nevada, Reno Reno, NV 89557 From: Members <members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org> on behalf of Erica Robles-Anderson <ewoka823@gmail.com> Date: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 7:25 AM To: "McMillan, William W" <william.mcmillan@cuaa.edu> Cc: members <members@sigcis.org> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Cybernetics and Industry Hi Bjorn Your line of inquiry sounds super interesting, I’d love to know what you find. I’ll echo the recommendation to trace Stafford Beer. There’s a helpful chapter about him in Andrew Pickering’s The Cybernetic Brain. Also following Gordon Pask’s lineage to practitioners such as Paul Pangaro and Hugh Dubberly might make sense. Both have worked to transmit cybernetic ideas to major industrial players. I believe interactions of the ACM ran a piece by Dubberly a few years back with diagrams showing how cybernetic thinking applied to the product design and innovation processes. They’re quite beautiful and deserving of scholarly analysis. Happy to chat offline if it’s useful. Best Erica Erica Robles-Anderson Associate Professor Media, Culture, and Communication New York University erica.robles@nyu.edu<mailto:erica.robles@nyu.edu> @fstflofscholars On Jun 29, 2018, at 9:41 AM, McMillan, William W <william.mcmillan@cuaa.edu<mailto:william.mcmillan@cuaa.edu>> wrote: Hi, Bjorn. The work in systems analysis of Ben S. Graham, Sr., at Standard Register starting in the 1940s might be relevant. Strong ties to Taylor and the Glibreths. Graham explicitly employed cybernetic concepts and worked with the Gilbreths and W. E. Deming. I can send you some info on this if you'd like. - Bill ________________________________ From: Members [members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org<mailto:members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org>] on behalf of Bjorn Westergard [bjornw@gmail.com<mailto:bjornw@gmail.com>] Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2018 6:27 PM To: members Subject: [SIGCIS-Members] Cybernetics and Industry Esteemed SIGCIS members, Which are the indispensable histories (and/or shorter historical essays) of cybernetics that touch on its social context? I'm particularly interested in the influence of self-styled cyberneticians on those playing a directive function in private enterprise (industrial/process engineers, managers, etc.) and vice versa. This question was prompted by a (characteristically!) gnomic remark of Wiener's in The Human Use of Human Beings, in which he appears to be quite fluent in "Taylorist" idiom: "The notion of programming in the factory had already become familiar through the work of Taylor and the Gilbreths on time study, and was ready to be transferred to the machine. This offered considerable difficulty of detail, but no great difficulty of principle." (p150) Cheers, Bjorn _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsigcis.org&data=01%7C01%7Cbbwalker%40unr.edu%7C550c440d74a446bc375e08d5e1ba0086%7C523b4bfc0ebd4c03b2b96f6a17fd31d8%7C1&sdata=G28m9KlT%2BFpVzTApx8Zs0X6gdhPnFDZG%2FDTMs5hwXqs%3D&reserved=0>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.sigcis.org%2Fpipermail%2Fmembers-sigcis.org%2F&data=01%7C01%7Cbbwalker%40unr.edu%7C550c440d74a446bc375e08d5e1ba0086%7C523b4bfc0ebd4c03b2b96f6a17fd31d8%7C1&sdata=RTrk%2BywPkW59bBGCazSRs%2BhKbIDjp1mrNI1t7fhqlyg%3D&reserved=0> and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.sigcis.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fmembers-sigcis.org&data=01%7C01%7Cbbwalker%40unr.edu%7C550c440d74a446bc375e08d5e1ba0086%7C523b4bfc0ebd4c03b2b96f6a17fd31d8%7C1&sdata=yr7BSxQzZvyE5mZoG4%2Bz8mrUUU1NDDo6XEl%2BjET3eOY%3D&reserved=0>
Key works include Eden Medina, Cybernetic Revolutionaries and Ron Kline, the Cybernetic Moment. Both are outstanding. --Hunter Dr. Hunter Heyck Professor and Chair, Department of the History of Science University of Oklahoma 601 Elm St., PHSC 601 Norman, OK 73019-0315 hheyck@ou.edu 405-556-1145 (M) Author of: Age of System: understanding the development of modern social science<https://jhupbooks.press.jhu.edu/content/age-system> And, Herbert A. Simon: the bounds of reason in modern America<https://jhupbooks.press.jhu.edu/content/herbert-simon> [/Users/hunterheyck/Library/Containers/com.microsoft.Outlook/Data/Library/Caches/Signatures/signature_915899468] From: Members <members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org> on behalf of Barbara B Walker <bbwalker@unr.edu> Date: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 3:27 PM To: members <members@sigcis.org>, "bjornw@gmail.com" <bjornw@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Cybernetics and Industry Bjorn, This might be outside your realm of interest, but the classic piece of scholarship on cybernetics in the Soviet Union, where the concept played an important historical role, is Slava Gerovitch’s book From Newspeak to Cyberspeak. https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/newspeak-cyberspeak<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mitpress.mit.edu_books_newspeak-2Dcyberspeak&d=DwMGaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=BM0VlL6M9YOYuQiIBopsWA&m=ZGkx7Vn_mVnvuRmNM_AqkJ6jW5TN7jDrjNgCvaQpRrc&s=U5LZy3Xn2320-RIJCzt9CePSZ0My6TqnCRXm5Ax8FpE&e=> best, Barbara Barbara Walker Associate Professor Department of History/308 University of Nevada, Reno Reno, NV 89557 From: Members <members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org> on behalf of Erica Robles-Anderson <ewoka823@gmail.com> Date: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 7:25 AM To: "McMillan, William W" <william.mcmillan@cuaa.edu> Cc: members <members@sigcis.org> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Cybernetics and Industry Hi Bjorn Your line of inquiry sounds super interesting, I’d love to know what you find. I’ll echo the recommendation to trace Stafford Beer. There’s a helpful chapter about him in Andrew Pickering’s The Cybernetic Brain. Also following Gordon Pask’s lineage to practitioners such as Paul Pangaro and Hugh Dubberly might make sense. Both have worked to transmit cybernetic ideas to major industrial players. I believe interactions of the ACM ran a piece by Dubberly a few years back with diagrams showing how cybernetic thinking applied to the product design and innovation processes. They’re quite beautiful and deserving of scholarly analysis. Happy to chat offline if it’s useful. Best Erica Erica Robles-Anderson Associate Professor Media, Culture, and Communication New York University erica.robles@nyu.edu<mailto:erica.robles@nyu.edu> @fstflofscholars On Jun 29, 2018, at 9:41 AM, McMillan, William W <william.mcmillan@cuaa.edu<mailto:william.mcmillan@cuaa.edu>> wrote: Hi, Bjorn. The work in systems analysis of Ben S. Graham, Sr., at Standard Register starting in the 1940s might be relevant. Strong ties to Taylor and the Glibreths. Graham explicitly employed cybernetic concepts and worked with the Gilbreths and W. E. Deming. I can send you some info on this if you'd like. - Bill ________________________________ From: Members [members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org<mailto:members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org>] on behalf of Bjorn Westergard [bjornw@gmail.com<mailto:bjornw@gmail.com>] Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2018 6:27 PM To: members Subject: [SIGCIS-Members] Cybernetics and Industry Esteemed SIGCIS members, Which are the indispensable histories (and/or shorter historical essays) of cybernetics that touch on its social context? I'm particularly interested in the influence of self-styled cyberneticians on those playing a directive function in private enterprise (industrial/process engineers, managers, etc.) and vice versa. This question was prompted by a (characteristically!) gnomic remark of Wiener's in The Human Use of Human Beings, in which he appears to be quite fluent in "Taylorist" idiom: "The notion of programming in the factory had already become familiar through the work of Taylor and the Gilbreths on time study, and was ready to be transferred to the machine. This offered considerable difficulty of detail, but no great difficulty of principle." (p150) Cheers, Bjorn _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fsigcis.org-26data-3D01-257C01-257Cbbwalker-2540unr.edu-257C550c440d74a446bc375e08d5e1ba0086-257C523b4bfc0ebd4c03b2b96f6a17fd31d8-257C1-26sdata-3DG28m9KlT-252BFpVzTApx8Zs0X6gdhPnFDZG-252FDTMs5hwXqs-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMGaQ&c=qKdtBuuu6dQK9MsRUVJ2DPXW6oayO8fu4TfEHS8sGNk&r=BM0VlL6M9YOYuQiIBopsWA&m=ZGkx7Vn_mVnvuRmNM_AqkJ6jW5TN7jDrjNgCvaQpRrc&s=-bZA0fEJ-lw-lrTlLo-9aa36UjTnl-4DtMRiAlkuXHk&e=>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. 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participants (9)
-
Barbara B Walker -
Bernard Geoghegan -
Bjorn Westergard -
Erica Robles-Anderson -
Heyck, Hunter -
Joly MacFie -
McMillan, William W -
Paul Pangaro -
Willard McCarty