Hi SIGCISers, Can anyone advise on the origin of the term “vector graphics.” Clearly, it literally describes a production of “vectors” on the screen by a concrete line-drawing technology. However, I’m wondering if there were multiple senses in that term initially. Specifically, looking through SAGE documentation from the 1950s and 1960s, esp, accounts of if operator displays, “vector” describes the physical trajectory of planes on the display. As SAGE was also a key source for early graphical interfaces, I’m wondering of the term “vector graphics” had a double connotation, as an analogy between the flight paths and the manner of illustrating graphics. It’s not earth shaking, but it’s etymologically neat-o if one can trace “vector graphics” to multiple connotations at its coinage. Best, b
Hi all, I'm afraid I can't help you with the question on the etymology of vector in computing context. However, your question reminds me of an interrupted odyssey I have yet to finish, which is: what is the etymology of "string" (as a name for the primitive type of a series of characters) in computing context? If anybody has any clues where I should look for the first use in concrete connection to digital computing I would be greatly appreciative. Thanks and best regards --Joris van Zundert On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 at 09:27, Bernard Geoghegan < bernardgeoghegan2010@u.northwestern.edu> wrote:
Hi SIGCISers,
Can anyone advise on the origin of the term “vector graphics.”
Clearly, it literally describes a production of “vectors” on the screen by a concrete line-drawing technology. However, I’m wondering if there were multiple senses in that term initially. Specifically, looking through SAGE documentation from the 1950s and 1960s, esp, accounts of if operator displays, “vector” describes the physical trajectory of planes on the display. As SAGE was also a key source for early graphical interfaces, I’m wondering of the term “vector graphics” had a double connotation, as an analogy between the flight paths and the manner of illustrating graphics.
It’s not earth shaking, but it’s etymologically neat-o if one can trace “vector graphics” to multiple connotations at its coinage.
Best, b
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-- Drs. Joris J. van Zundert Researcher & Developer in Humanities Computing Dept. of Literary Studies Huygens Institute for the History of the Netherlands Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences joris.van.zundert@huygens.knaw.nl @jorisvanzundert +31624461051 https://jorisvanzundert.net/ https://www.huygens.knaw.nl/vanzundert/?lang=en visiting address Oudezijds Achterburgwal 185 1012 DK Amsterdam The Netherlands postal address P.O. Box 10855 1001 EW Amsterdam The Netherlands -- Jack Sparrow: I thought you were supposed to keep to the code. Mr. Gibbs: We figured they were more actual guidelines.
Hi, Here's a start: "Comit [11], designed in 1957-58, was the fi rst string-processing language. ... [11] Victor H. Yngve. Computer Programming with COMIT II. MIT Press, Cambridge, MA, 1963." Griswold, Ralph & Hanson, David. (1995), String Processing Languages,Encyclopedia of Computer Science, 3rd ed., Van Nostrand Reinhold, NY, 1993, pp. 1302-1308. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/2752636_String_Processing_Languages The original COMIT paper might have priority: Mechanical Translation, vol.5, no.1, July 1958; pp. 25-41 A Programming Language for Mechanical Translation Victor H. Yngve, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Massachusetts. http://www.mt-archive.info/MT-1958-Yngve.pdf Regards Brian Carpenter On 21-Feb-21 00:29, Joris van Zundert wrote:
Hi all,
I'm afraid I can't help you with the question on the etymology of vector in computing context.
However, your question reminds me of an interrupted odyssey I have yet to finish, which is: what is the etymology of "string" (as a name for the primitive type of a series of characters) in computing context? If anybody has any clues where I should look for the first use in concrete connection to digital computing I would be greatly appreciative.
Thanks and best regards --Joris van Zundert
On Sat, 20 Feb 2021 at 09:27, Bernard Geoghegan <bernardgeoghegan2010@u.northwestern.edu <mailto:bernardgeoghegan2010@u.northwestern.edu>> wrote:
Hi SIGCISers,____
__ __
Can anyone advise on the origin of the term “vector graphics.”____
__ __
Clearly, it literally describes a production of “vectors” on the screen by a concrete line-drawing technology. However, I’m wondering if there were multiple senses in that term initially. Specifically, looking through SAGE documentation from the 1950s and 1960s, esp, accounts of if operator displays, “vector” describes the physical trajectory of planes on the display. As SAGE was also a key source for early graphical interfaces, I’m wondering of the term “vector graphics” had a double connotation, as an analogy between the flight paths and the manner of illustrating graphics. ____
__ __
It’s not earth shaking, but it’s etymologically neat-o if one can trace “vector graphics” to multiple connotations at its coinage.____
__ __
Best, b____
__ __
__ __
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-- Drs. Joris J. van Zundert Researcher & Developer in Humanities Computing
Dept. of Literary Studies Huygens Institute for the History of the Netherlands Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences
joris.van.zundert@huygens.knaw.nl <mailto:joris.van.zundert@huygens.knaw.nl> @jorisvanzundert +31624461051
https://jorisvanzundert.net/ https://www.huygens.knaw.nl/vanzundert/?lang=en
visiting address Oudezijds Achterburgwal 185 1012 DK Amsterdam The Netherlands
postal address P.O. Box 10855 1001 EW Amsterdam The Netherlands
-- Jack Sparrow: I thought you were supposed to keep to the code. Mr. Gibbs: We figured they were more actual guidelines.
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
Bernard, I think that 'vector' in the sense of directing an intercepting aircraft towards an enemy aircraft was first used by the RAF during WW II. (I'm not an expert but I did read a lot of popular books about WW II as a teenager.) You can find something about this and some references in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowding_system . So that was certainly not original to SAGE, and appears to go back at least to 1935. Presumably it derived from the use of 'vector' in mathematics, which goes back to the 1840s. I have no idea whether using it to describe the SAGE displays was an independent choice, but again it very precisely matches the mathematical use of 'vector'. IMHO, it was just the right word for both cases. (My personal first experience of vector graphics was as an Imlac PDS-1 programmer in 1971. Since I'd been taught about mathematical vectors, it just struck me as the obvious description.) Regards Brian Carpenter On 20-Feb-21 21:27, Bernard Geoghegan wrote:
Hi SIGCISers,
Can anyone advise on the origin of the term “vector graphics.”
Clearly, it literally describes a production of “vectors” on the screen by a concrete line-drawing technology. However, I’m wondering if there were multiple senses in that term initially. Specifically, looking through SAGE documentation from the 1950s and 1960s, esp, accounts of if operator displays, “vector” describes the physical trajectory of planes on the display. As SAGE was also a key source for early graphical interfaces, I’m wondering of the term “vector graphics” had a double connotation, as an analogy between the flight paths and the manner of illustrating graphics.
It’s not earth shaking, but it’s etymologically neat-o if one can trace “vector graphics” to multiple connotations at its coinage.
Best, b
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
This is a fascinating question Bernie, and makes me even more excited for your new work! I would echo Brian's suggestion that "vector" was probably just the best word in both cases, as its history and use predates the SAGE system itself. An interesting question might be when and why the term "calligraphic display" was used as a synonym for vector displays, as I imagine that did not begin until well into the development of early graphical systems. It's also worth noting that the SAGE system used Charactron tubes for its 19" display consoles, which are extruded beam displays and not vector displays. It's possible vector displays were used elsewhere in the system, but I believe the consoles used by operators were Charactron tubes. -- Jacob Gaboury Assistant Professor of New Media History and Theory Dept. of Film & Media, University of California, Berkeley jacobgaboury.com/ <http://www.jacobgaboury.com/> On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 12:30 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
Bernard,
I think that 'vector' in the sense of directing an intercepting aircraft towards an enemy aircraft was first used by the RAF during WW II. (I'm not an expert but I did read a lot of popular books about WW II as a teenager.) You can find something about this and some references in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowding_system . So that was certainly not original to SAGE, and appears to go back at least to 1935. Presumably it derived from the use of 'vector' in mathematics, which goes back to the 1840s.
I have no idea whether using it to describe the SAGE displays was an independent choice, but again it very precisely matches the mathematical use of 'vector'. IMHO, it was just the right word for both cases.
(My personal first experience of vector graphics was as an Imlac PDS-1 programmer in 1971. Since I'd been taught about mathematical vectors, it just struck me as the obvious description.)
Regards Brian Carpenter
Hi SIGCISers,
Can anyone advise on the origin of the term “vector graphics.”
Clearly, it literally describes a production of “vectors” on the screen by a concrete line-drawing technology. However, I’m wondering if there were multiple senses in that term initially. Specifically, looking through SAGE documentation from the 1950s and 1960s, esp, accounts of if operator displays, “vector” describes the physical trajectory of planes on the display. As SAGE was also a key source for early graphical interfaces, I’m wondering of the term “vector graphics” had a double connotation, as an analogy between the flight paths and the manner of illustrating graphics.
It’s not earth shaking, but it’s etymologically neat-o if one can trace “vector graphics” to multiple connotations at its coinage.
Best, b
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion
On 20-Feb-21 21:27, Bernard Geoghegan wrote: list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
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This is all some speculation and a little bit of poking around, but I wonder if the term “vector graphics” came about after people started to using raster graphics. For example, Ivan Sutherland’s PhD thesis on Sketchpad in 1963 just talks about a “display”, although it’s usually characterized as a “vector display” in later discussions about it because the MIT Lincoln Labs TX-2 display that Sutherland used was ultimately derived from oscilloscopes. Raster techniques based on the scanning in CRTs started, I think, in the late 60s. (Just to be clear, the TX-2 display was a “vector display”, but that term doesn’t show up in Sutherland’s work at the time). Not that it’s definitive in any way, but a Google Ngrams search for “vector graphics” vs “raster graphics”[1] might support this idea, because both terms seem to take off at about the same time around 1973. Oddly, there’s a weird bump from around 1937 to 1946 or so for “vector graphics”, but a quick look at the results tends to find either something about drawing or isn’t a good search result (bad ngrams!) - Win [1] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22vector+graphics%22%2C%22raster+graphics%22&year_start=1920&year_end=1978&corpus=26&smoothing=3
On Feb 20, 2021, at 3:48 PM, Jacob Gaboury <gaboury@gmail.com> wrote:
This is a fascinating question Bernie, and makes me even more excited for your new work! I would echo Brian's suggestion that "vector" was probably just the best word in both cases, as its history and use predates the SAGE system itself. An interesting question might be when and why the term "calligraphic display" was used as a synonym for vector displays, as I imagine that did not begin until well into the development of early graphical systems. It's also worth noting that the SAGE system used Charactron tubes for its 19" display consoles, which are extruded beam displays and not vector displays. It's possible vector displays were used elsewhere in the system, but I believe the consoles used by operators were Charactron tubes.
-- Jacob Gaboury Assistant Professor of New Media History and Theory Dept. of Film & Media, University of California, Berkeley jacobgaboury.com/
On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 12:30 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: Bernard,
I think that 'vector' in the sense of directing an intercepting aircraft towards an enemy aircraft was first used by the RAF during WW II. (I'm not an expert but I did read a lot of popular books about WW II as a teenager.) You can find something about this and some references in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowding_system . So that was certainly not original to SAGE, and appears to go back at least to 1935. Presumably it derived from the use of 'vector' in mathematics, which goes back to the 1840s.
I have no idea whether using it to describe the SAGE displays was an independent choice, but again it very precisely matches the mathematical use of 'vector'. IMHO, it was just the right word for both cases.
(My personal first experience of vector graphics was as an Imlac PDS-1 programmer in 1971. Since I'd been taught about mathematical vectors, it just struck me as the obvious description.)
Regards Brian Carpenter
On 20-Feb-21 21:27, Bernard Geoghegan wrote:
Hi SIGCISers,
Can anyone advise on the origin of the term “vector graphics.”
Clearly, it literally describes a production of “vectors” on the screen by a concrete line-drawing technology. However, I’m wondering if there were multiple senses in that term initially. Specifically, looking through SAGE documentation from the 1950s and 1960s, esp, accounts of if operator displays, “vector” describes the physical trajectory of planes on the display. As SAGE was also a key source for early graphical interfaces, I’m wondering of the term “vector graphics” had a double connotation, as an analogy between the flight paths and the manner of illustrating graphics.
It’s not earth shaking, but it’s etymologically neat-o if one can trace “vector graphics” to multiple connotations at its coinage.
Best, b
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
Win, I believe that you are right, certainly with respect to the Sketchpad displays, which were "vector" but not very fast-vector. Some may recall that Sketchpad "movies" of the day were in fact stitched together from multiple compute-runs, e.g. the Ford fender deformation movie shown at IBM SHARE in Ne Orleans in 1965. The reason was that the display being used was electromagnetic, and hence not fast enough to display dynamic images of the quality needed. My team and the development team for HP's prototype HP 2116 minicomputer were at the SHARE conference, dazzled by Ivan's talk and display images. And that was the birth of our decision to build the HP 1300A. I visited Ivan and the Sketchpad team shortly thereafter, and was very disappointed to learn that what they had was so limited, but in retrospect, they had no effective display technology choice. There is no question that Ivan and team knew, and described, their drawings as 'vector drawings' Essentially, these were some of the first wire-frame displays being constructed, to my knowledge, for real work. Chuck House www.innovascapesinstitute.com <http://www.innovascapesinstitute.com> www.anywhereanytime.io/covid19 <http://www.anywhereanytime.io/covid19> http://innovascapes.blogspot.com 805-570-6706 On 2/20/21, 2:16 PM, "Members on behalf of Win Treese" <members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org on behalf of treese@acm.org> wrote: This is all some speculation and a little bit of poking around, but I wonder if the term “vector graphics” came about after people started to using raster graphics. For example, Ivan Sutherland’s PhD thesis on Sketchpad in 1963 just talks about a “display”, although it’s usually characterized as a “vector display” in later discussions about it because the MIT Lincoln Labs TX-2 display that Sutherland used was ultimately derived from oscilloscopes. Raster techniques based on the scanning in CRTs started, I think, in the late 60s. (Just to be clear, the TX-2 display was a “vector display”, but that term doesn’t show up in Sutherland’s work at the time). Not that it’s definitive in any way, but a Google Ngrams search for “vector graphics” vs “raster graphics”[1] might support this idea, because both terms seem to take off at about the same time around 1973. Oddly, there’s a weird bump from around 1937 to 1946 or so for “vector graphics”, but a quick look at the results tends to find either something about drawing or isn’t a good search result (bad ngrams!) - Win [1] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22vector+graphics%22%2C%22raster+graphics%22&year_start=1920&year_end=1978&corpus=26&smoothing=3 > On Feb 20, 2021, at 3:48 PM, Jacob Gaboury <gaboury@gmail.com> wrote: > > This is a fascinating question Bernie, and makes me even more excited for your new work! I would echo Brian's suggestion that "vector" was probably just the best word in both cases, as its history and use predates the SAGE system itself. An interesting question might be when and why the term "calligraphic display" was used as a synonym for vector displays, as I imagine that did not begin until well into the development of early graphical systems. It's also worth noting that the SAGE system used Charactron tubes for its 19" display consoles, which are extruded beam displays and not vector displays. It's possible vector displays were used elsewhere in the system, but I believe the consoles used by operators were Charactron tubes. > > -- > Jacob Gaboury > Assistant Professor of New Media History and Theory > Dept. of Film & Media, University of California, Berkeley > jacobgaboury.com/ > > On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 12:30 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Bernard, > > I think that 'vector' in the sense of directing an intercepting aircraft towards an enemy aircraft was first used by the RAF during WW II. (I'm not an expert but I did read a lot of popular books about WW II as a teenager.) You can find something about this and some references in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowding_system . So that was certainly not original to SAGE, and appears to go back at least to 1935. Presumably it derived from the use of 'vector' in mathematics, which goes back to the 1840s. > > I have no idea whether using it to describe the SAGE displays was an independent choice, but again it very precisely matches the mathematical use of 'vector'. IMHO, it was just the right word for both cases. > > (My personal first experience of vector graphics was as an Imlac PDS-1 programmer in 1971. Since I'd been taught about mathematical vectors, it just struck me as the obvious description.) > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 20-Feb-21 21:27, Bernard Geoghegan wrote: > > Hi SIGCISers, > > > > > > > > Can anyone advise on the origin of the term “vector graphics.” > > > > > > > > Clearly, it literally describes a production of “vectors” on the screen by a concrete line-drawing technology. However, I’m wondering if there were multiple senses in that term initially. Specifically, looking through SAGE documentation from the 1950s and 1960s, esp, accounts of if operator displays, “vector” describes the physical trajectory of planes on the display. As SAGE was also a key source for early graphical interfaces, I’m wondering of the term “vector graphics” had a double connotation, as an analogy between the flight paths and the manner of illustrating graphics. > > > > > > > > It’s not earth shaking, but it’s etymologically neat-o if one can trace “vector graphics” to multiple connotations at its coinage. > > > > > > > > Best, b > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org > _______________________________________________ > This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
Reading all that reminded me that as a grad student at Manchester (UK), I programmed the "Oscilloscope Display Type 34D" attached to the PDP-8 that I was using. That was in 1969/70. I've completely forgotten the details of my software, but judging by the relevant manual (the 1966 PDP-8 User's Handbook) it could display only one spot at a time, specified by (x,y,intensity). Everything else was left to the programmer; any vectors or rasters were generated by software, and the main loop of your program had to refresh the display constantly. Sounds as if HP was ahead of the game. All the same, the PDS-1 changed everything, in my opinion. When did the DEC Type 340 display arrive? Google is not helping me on that. (It is nothing to do with the VT340 which was 20 years later.) "The DEC Type 340 display could draw dots, straight lines, curved lines and characters, and read the position of the lightpen." [ https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/computer-graphics-music-and-art/1... ] Regards Brian Carpenter On 21-Feb-21 11:34, Chuck House wrote:
Win, I believe that you are right, certainly with respect to the Sketchpad displays, which were "vector" but not very fast-vector.
Some may recall that Sketchpad "movies" of the day were in fact stitched together from multiple compute-runs, e.g. the Ford fender deformation movie shown at IBM SHARE in Ne Orleans in 1965. The reason was that the display being used was electromagnetic, and hence not fast enough to display dynamic images of the quality needed. My team and the development team for HP's prototype HP 2116 minicomputer were at the SHARE conference, dazzled by Ivan's talk and display images. And that was the birth of our decision to build the HP 1300A. I visited Ivan and the Sketchpad team shortly thereafter, and was very disappointed to learn that what they had was so limited, but in retrospect, they had no effective display technology choice.
There is no question that Ivan and team knew, and described, their drawings as 'vector drawings' Essentially, these were some of the first wire-frame displays being constructed, to my knowledge, for real work.
Chuck House www.innovascapesinstitute.com <http://www.innovascapesinstitute.com> www.anywhereanytime.io/covid19 <http://www.anywhereanytime.io/covid19>
http://innovascapes.blogspot.com 805-570-6706
On 2/20/21, 2:16 PM, "Members on behalf of Win Treese" <members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org on behalf of treese@acm.org> wrote:
This is all some speculation and a little bit of poking around, but I wonder if the term “vector graphics” came about after people started to using raster graphics. For example, Ivan Sutherland’s PhD thesis on Sketchpad in 1963 just talks about a “display”, although it’s usually characterized as a “vector display” in later discussions about it because the MIT Lincoln Labs TX-2 display that Sutherland used was ultimately derived from oscilloscopes. Raster techniques based on the scanning in CRTs started, I think, in the late 60s. (Just to be clear, the TX-2 display was a “vector display”, but that term doesn’t show up in Sutherland’s work at the time).
Not that it’s definitive in any way, but a Google Ngrams search for “vector graphics” vs “raster graphics”[1] might support this idea, because both terms seem to take off at about the same time around 1973. Oddly, there’s a weird bump from around 1937 to 1946 or so for “vector graphics”, but a quick look at the results tends to find either something about drawing or isn’t a good search result (bad ngrams!)
- Win
> On Feb 20, 2021, at 3:48 PM, Jacob Gaboury <gaboury@gmail.com> wrote: > > This is a fascinating question Bernie, and makes me even more excited for your new work! I would echo Brian's suggestion that "vector" was probably just the best word in both cases, as its history and use predates the SAGE system itself. An interesting question might be when and why the term "calligraphic display" was used as a synonym for vector displays, as I imagine that did not begin until well into the development of early graphical systems. It's also worth noting that the SAGE system used Charactron tubes for its 19" display consoles, which are extruded beam displays and not vector displays. It's possible vector displays were used elsewhere in the system, but I believe the consoles used by operators were Charactron tubes. > > -- > Jacob Gaboury > Assistant Professor of New Media History and Theory > Dept. of Film & Media, University of California, Berkeley > jacobgaboury.com/ > > On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 12:30 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Bernard, > > I think that 'vector' in the sense of directing an intercepting aircraft towards an enemy aircraft was first used by the RAF during WW II. (I'm not an expert but I did read a lot of popular books about WW II as a teenager.) You can find something about this and some references in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowding_system . So that was certainly not original to SAGE, and appears to go back at least to 1935. Presumably it derived from the use of 'vector' in mathematics, which goes back to the 1840s. > > I have no idea whether using it to describe the SAGE displays was an independent choice, but again it very precisely matches the mathematical use of 'vector'. IMHO, it was just the right word for both cases. > > (My personal first experience of vector graphics was as an Imlac PDS-1 programmer in 1971. Since I'd been taught about mathematical vectors, it just struck me as the obvious description.) > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 20-Feb-21 21:27, Bernard Geoghegan wrote: > > Hi SIGCISers, > > > > > > > > Can anyone advise on the origin of the term “vector graphics.” > > > > > > > > Clearly, it literally describes a production of “vectors” on the screen by a concrete line-drawing technology. However, I’m wondering if there were multiple senses in that term initially. Specifically, looking through SAGE documentation from the 1950s and 1960s, esp, accounts of if operator displays, “vector” describes the physical trajectory of planes on the display. As SAGE was also a key source for early graphical interfaces, I’m wondering of the term “vector graphics” had a double connotation, as an analogy between the flight paths and the manner of illustrating graphics. > > > > > > > > It’s not earth shaking, but it’s etymologically neat-o if one can trace “vector graphics” to multiple connotations at its coinage. > > > > > > > > Best, b > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org > _______________________________________________ > This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
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I support Brian’s description. I designed and built (one of) the first commercially available “vector displays”, the HP 1300A, in 1966. C.f. https://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1967-12.pdf This little box, with an 8” x 10” display, was widely used for a time, including for Alan Kays original Flex projects (see the last figure in https://www.mprove.de/visionreality/media/kay69.html ) Its value for Kay, and for many others, was that the CRT beam could be independently addressed from any X,Y co-ordinate, whether repetitive or single-shot. It proved invaluable for early computer graphics efforts at “Tripe-I” eventually leading to their development of the animation for Tron. There were lots of other applications that did not depend on the vectorizing capability, such as the first artificial heart transplant surgery room monitor (where the non-flaring brightness capability vs. magnetic deflection systems was crucial). The common parlance of the day for “computer graphics” at terminals was ‘raster-scan display’ and it was simply vs. that technique that I recall ‘vector graphics’ being used. Many estimates in ‘computer history land’ aver that less than 1,000 display computer terminals existed before 1971. They seldom count the HP 1300A or its derivatives, which had sold many tens of thousands by then, mostly as embedded displays for high-speed instrumentation graphics that depended upon vectorization. Chuck House www.innovascapesinstitute.com www.anywhereanytime.io/covid19 http://innovascapes.blogspot.com 805-570-6706 From: Members <members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org> on behalf of Jacob Gaboury <gaboury@gmail.com> Date: Saturday, February 20, 2021 at 12:49 PM To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Cc: "members@sigcis.org" <members@sigcis.org> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Origin of "vector" in vector graphics This is a fascinating question Bernie, and makes me even more excited for your new work! I would echo Brian's suggestion that "vector" was probably just the best word in both cases, as its history and use predates the SAGE system itself. An interesting question might be when and why the term "calligraphic display" was used as a synonym for vector displays, as I imagine that did not begin until well into the development of early graphical systems. It's also worth noting that the SAGE system used Charactron tubes for its 19" display consoles, which are extruded beam displays and not vector displays. It's possible vector displays were used elsewhere in the system, but I believe the consoles used by operators were Charactron tubes. -- Jacob Gaboury Assistant Professor of New Media History and Theory Dept. of Film & Media, University of California, Berkeley jacobgaboury.com/ On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 12:30 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: Bernard, I think that 'vector' in the sense of directing an intercepting aircraft towards an enemy aircraft was first used by the RAF during WW II. (I'm not an expert but I did read a lot of popular books about WW II as a teenager.) You can find something about this and some references in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowding_system . So that was certainly not original to SAGE, and appears to go back at least to 1935. Presumably it derived from the use of 'vector' in mathematics, which goes back to the 1840s. I have no idea whether using it to describe the SAGE displays was an independent choice, but again it very precisely matches the mathematical use of 'vector'. IMHO, it was just the right word for both cases. (My personal first experience of vector graphics was as an Imlac PDS-1 programmer in 1971. Since I'd been taught about mathematical vectors, it just struck me as the obvious description.) Regards Brian Carpenter On 20-Feb-21 21:27, Bernard Geoghegan wrote:
Hi SIGCISers,
Can anyone advise on the origin of the term “vector graphics.”
Clearly, it literally describes a production of “vectors” on the screen by a concrete line-drawing technology. However, I’m wondering if there were multiple senses in that term initially. Specifically, looking through SAGE documentation from the 1950s and 1960s, esp, accounts of if operator displays, “vector” describes the physical trajectory of planes on the display. As SAGE was also a key source for early graphical interfaces, I’m wondering of the term “vector graphics” had a double connotation, as an analogy between the flight paths and the manner of illustrating graphics.
It’s not earth shaking, but it’s etymologically neat-o if one can trace “vector graphics” to multiple connotations at its coinage.
Best, b
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
Hi Bernie, This might be slightly *ahem* orthogonal to the question of vector graphics, but depending how widely you wish to dilate your sense of "vector" here, it might make sense to also consider two other tangentially-related senses: the vector data structure, and the vector CPU. In some programming language contexts, the array data structure for holding a list of values was typically created of a fixed size. If the programmer wanted to grow the size of a list of numbers, memory management techniques would have to be utilized to find and allocate additional storage space. The idea of the vector data structure was a dynamically-sized array capable of doing that memory management, in a sense, automatically, hiding those implementation details from the programmer. This behavior has become the norm in most high-level programming languages, so I think the term vector in this sense is mostly obsolete. But I've always wondered about the origins of this term for this data structure. My best guess is that a vector data structure could be evocative of a mathematical vector in the sense that it can grow, or, scale – like how the magnitude of a mathematical vector can be increased when multiplied by a scalar. It doesn't strike me as an obvious coinage to use for this concept, so I wonder if maybe there is some link in which early developers of the vector data structure for some reason or another had the mathematical concept of the vector fresh in the mind and ready to deploy as a metaphor. In a somewhat related sense, the vector CPU was a technique in parallel processing whereby machine instructions, instead of specifying a single memory location to operate on, would specify a memory location and a quantity, corresponding to the number of adjacent values in memory on which to execute the given operation. The idea here was that loading values into registers to operate on from memory became a bottleneck, so if algorithms could be coded such that machine instructions could operate on many contiguous values at once, those values could all be pre-loaded into registers at once, instead of having to go to memory for each instruction. My guess is that the term "vector" pertains here because a vector-based machine instruction would include not just a memory location, but a memory location and the number of contiguous values to operate on – metaphorically evoking the way that a mathematical vector is often represented by two values: a direction and a magnitude. Again, it does not seem like a particularly obvious term to apply, so I wonder if there is some reason why this is the one that developers decided to use. I'm enjoying all the discussion on this thread! Best, Rory -- Rory Solomon, PhD (he / him) Assistant Professor & Director of Code as a Liberal Art Eugene Lang College, The New School solomonr@newschool.edu | @rorys On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 3:27 AM Bernard Geoghegan < bernardgeoghegan2010@u.northwestern.edu> wrote:
Hi SIGCISers,
Can anyone advise on the origin of the term “vector graphics.”
Clearly, it literally describes a production of “vectors” on the screen by a concrete line-drawing technology. However, I’m wondering if there were multiple senses in that term initially. Specifically, looking through SAGE documentation from the 1950s and 1960s, esp, accounts of if operator displays, “vector” describes the physical trajectory of planes on the display. As SAGE was also a key source for early graphical interfaces, I’m wondering of the term “vector graphics” had a double connotation, as an analogy between the flight paths and the manner of illustrating graphics.
It’s not earth shaking, but it’s etymologically neat-o if one can trace “vector graphics” to multiple connotations at its coinage.
Best, b
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.sigcis.org_pipermail_members-2Dsigcis.org_&d=DwICAg&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=xQ27Xpp_1MwpAfMieAaTnw&m=DkJto07C57Sh_WpTn7l0S91wwJQUFA2MU75qC5tP7ik&s=oNo1PEGiWi8VY3hkFyEzi2JSKvM1slwWKv4YMS5EOeo&e= and you can change your subscription options at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.sigcis.org_listinfo.cgi_members-2Dsigcis.org&d=DwICAg&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=xQ27Xpp_1MwpAfMieAaTnw&m=DkJto07C57Sh_WpTn7l0S91wwJQUFA2MU75qC5tP7ik&s=byIP0_qOK1xdN_QvBKMktUyDVvzxvsez77jH6QbAGBc&e=
Hello Bernard, all, Likewise enjoying eavesdropping on this thread! Perhaps this is already on everyone's radar (more bad puns) but Michael J. Crowe's book *A History of Vector Analysis: The Evolution of the Idea of a Vectorial System* is a challenging and thorough work in the history of math; while it doesn't get into graphics (or even digital computers) as far as I recall, it'd be a good place to turn on the notion of the vector itself. You might also take a look at this paper by Arthur Bryson, Walter Denham, and Stuart Dryfus (control theorists working in aeronautics in the 1960's), which I was looking at in the context of the history of optimization. Again, maybe not directly relevant, but this was in an aeronautics journal, I know for certain they were making extensive use of computers at the time, and "vectors" are everywhere, so perhaps you are on to something? Bryson, Arthur E., Walter F. Denham, and Stuart E. Dreyfus. “Optimal Programming Problems with Inequality Constraints I: Necessary Conditions for Extremal Solutions.” AIAA Journal 1, no. 11 (1963): 2544–50. https://doi.org/10.2514/3.2107. For what its worth, I started digging into Bryson and Denham's work for a forthcoming essay on the history of metaphors used to describe gradient optimization—happy to share some of that off-list. All best, Sam On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 4:23 PM Rory Solomon <solomonr@newschool.edu> wrote:
Hi Bernie,
This might be slightly *ahem* orthogonal to the question of vector graphics, but depending how widely you wish to dilate your sense of "vector" here, it might make sense to also consider two other tangentially-related senses: the vector data structure, and the vector CPU.
In some programming language contexts, the array data structure for holding a list of values was typically created of a fixed size. If the programmer wanted to grow the size of a list of numbers, memory management techniques would have to be utilized to find and allocate additional storage space. The idea of the vector data structure was a dynamically-sized array capable of doing that memory management, in a sense, automatically, hiding those implementation details from the programmer. This behavior has become the norm in most high-level programming languages, so I think the term vector in this sense is mostly obsolete. But I've always wondered about the origins of this term for this data structure. My best guess is that a vector data structure could be evocative of a mathematical vector in the sense that it can grow, or, scale – like how the magnitude of a mathematical vector can be increased when multiplied by a scalar. It doesn't strike me as an obvious coinage to use for this concept, so I wonder if maybe there is some link in which early developers of the vector data structure for some reason or another had the mathematical concept of the vector fresh in the mind and ready to deploy as a metaphor.
In a somewhat related sense, the vector CPU was a technique in parallel processing whereby machine instructions, instead of specifying a single memory location to operate on, would specify a memory location and a quantity, corresponding to the number of adjacent values in memory on which to execute the given operation. The idea here was that loading values into registers to operate on from memory became a bottleneck, so if algorithms could be coded such that machine instructions could operate on many contiguous values at once, those values could all be pre-loaded into registers at once, instead of having to go to memory for each instruction. My guess is that the term "vector" pertains here because a vector-based machine instruction would include not just a memory location, but a memory location and the number of contiguous values to operate on – metaphorically evoking the way that a mathematical vector is often represented by two values: a direction and a magnitude. Again, it does not seem like a particularly obvious term to apply, so I wonder if there is some reason why this is the one that developers decided to use.
I'm enjoying all the discussion on this thread!
Best, Rory
-- Rory Solomon, PhD (he / him) Assistant Professor & Director of Code as a Liberal Art Eugene Lang College, The New School solomonr@newschool.edu | @rorys
On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 3:27 AM Bernard Geoghegan < bernardgeoghegan2010@u.northwestern.edu> wrote:
Hi SIGCISers,
Can anyone advise on the origin of the term “vector graphics.”
Clearly, it literally describes a production of “vectors” on the screen by a concrete line-drawing technology. However, I’m wondering if there were multiple senses in that term initially. Specifically, looking through SAGE documentation from the 1950s and 1960s, esp, accounts of if operator displays, “vector” describes the physical trajectory of planes on the display. As SAGE was also a key source for early graphical interfaces, I’m wondering of the term “vector graphics” had a double connotation, as an analogy between the flight paths and the manner of illustrating graphics.
It’s not earth shaking, but it’s etymologically neat-o if one can trace “vector graphics” to multiple connotations at its coinage.
Best, b
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.sigcis.org_pipermail_members-2Dsigcis.org_&d=DwICAg&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=xQ27Xpp_1MwpAfMieAaTnw&m=DkJto07C57Sh_WpTn7l0S91wwJQUFA2MU75qC5tP7ik&s=oNo1PEGiWi8VY3hkFyEzi2JSKvM1slwWKv4YMS5EOeo&e= and you can change your subscription options at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.sigcis.org_listinfo.cgi_members-2Dsigcis.org&d=DwICAg&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=xQ27Xpp_1MwpAfMieAaTnw&m=DkJto07C57Sh_WpTn7l0S91wwJQUFA2MU75qC5tP7ik&s=byIP0_qOK1xdN_QvBKMktUyDVvzxvsez77jH6QbAGBc&e=
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
-- Sam P. Kellogg he/him // MCC, NYU <http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/mcc/> // samkellogg.com
Dear SIGCIS Members, Thank you for this extraordinary inventory of suggestions, citations, and riffs on computer graphics. It’s so expansive I can hardly to justice to it yet, but I guess to summarise a few takeaways: There seem to be signs that “vector” airplanes dates from British usage back to WW2 or so, the earliest citation in displays seems to be from that 1958 Whirlwind manual cited by Guy, and it was at first glance the general appropriateness of the term that led to its invocation both for graphics and flight trajectories. The original coinage of the term “vector” for vector graphics, though, it seems is not crystal clear? (I was delighted to see Sam reference Stuart Dreyfus mentioned as an interesting control and aeronautics theorist, given his other ties to the computing through his brother Hubert. Another example of the wealth of layering associations at work in many of these technologies and concepts.) I’m going to try not to dive down a rabbit hole of vectorology, now, but with all these citations and technologies I hadn’t previously considered, I may just succumb to that “line of flight.” Thank you again, for the inspiring wealth of thoughts! Best, Bernard From: Sam Kellogg <samkellogg@gmail.com> Date: Thursday, 25 February 2021 at 00:20 To: Rory Solomon <solomonr@newschool.edu> Cc: Bernard Geoghegan <bernardgeoghegan2010@u.northwestern.edu>, members@sigcis.org <members@sigcis.org> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Origin of "vector" in vector graphics Hello Bernard, all, Likewise enjoying eavesdropping on this thread! Perhaps this is already on everyone's radar (more bad puns) but Michael J. Crowe's book A History of Vector Analysis: The Evolution of the Idea of a Vectorial System is a challenging and thorough work in the history of math; while it doesn't get into graphics (or even digital computers) as far as I recall, it'd be a good place to turn on the notion of the vector itself. You might also take a look at this paper by Arthur Bryson, Walter Denham, and Stuart Dryfus (control theorists working in aeronautics in the 1960's), which I was looking at in the context of the history of optimization. Again, maybe not directly relevant, but this was in an aeronautics journal, I know for certain they were making extensive use of computers at the time, and "vectors" are everywhere, so perhaps you are on to something? Bryson, Arthur E., Walter F. Denham, and Stuart E. Dreyfus. “Optimal Programming Problems with Inequality Constraints I: Necessary Conditions for Extremal Solutions.” AIAA Journal 1, no. 11 (1963): 2544–50. https://doi.org/10.2514/3.2107. For what its worth, I started digging into Bryson and Denham's work for a forthcoming essay on the history of metaphors used to describe gradient optimization—happy to share some of that off-list. All best, Sam On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 4:23 PM Rory Solomon <solomonr@newschool.edu<mailto:solomonr@newschool.edu>> wrote: Hi Bernie, This might be slightly *ahem* orthogonal to the question of vector graphics, but depending how widely you wish to dilate your sense of "vector" here, it might make sense to also consider two other tangentially-related senses: the vector data structure, and the vector CPU. In some programming language contexts, the array data structure for holding a list of values was typically created of a fixed size. If the programmer wanted to grow the size of a list of numbers, memory management techniques would have to be utilized to find and allocate additional storage space. The idea of the vector data structure was a dynamically-sized array capable of doing that memory management, in a sense, automatically, hiding those implementation details from the programmer. This behavior has become the norm in most high-level programming languages, so I think the term vector in this sense is mostly obsolete. But I've always wondered about the origins of this term for this data structure. My best guess is that a vector data structure could be evocative of a mathematical vector in the sense that it can grow, or, scale – like how the magnitude of a mathematical vector can be increased when multiplied by a scalar. It doesn't strike me as an obvious coinage to use for this concept, so I wonder if maybe there is some link in which early developers of the vector data structure for some reason or another had the mathematical concept of the vector fresh in the mind and ready to deploy as a metaphor. In a somewhat related sense, the vector CPU was a technique in parallel processing whereby machine instructions, instead of specifying a single memory location to operate on, would specify a memory location and a quantity, corresponding to the number of adjacent values in memory on which to execute the given operation. The idea here was that loading values into registers to operate on from memory became a bottleneck, so if algorithms could be coded such that machine instructions could operate on many contiguous values at once, those values could all be pre-loaded into registers at once, instead of having to go to memory for each instruction. My guess is that the term "vector" pertains here because a vector-based machine instruction would include not just a memory location, but a memory location and the number of contiguous values to operate on – metaphorically evoking the way that a mathematical vector is often represented by two values: a direction and a magnitude. Again, it does not seem like a particularly obvious term to apply, so I wonder if there is some reason why this is the one that developers decided to use. I'm enjoying all the discussion on this thread! Best, Rory -- Rory Solomon, PhD (he / him) Assistant Professor & Director of Code as a Liberal Art Eugene Lang College, The New School solomonr@newschool.edu<mailto:solomonr@newschool.edu> | @rorys On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 3:27 AM Bernard Geoghegan <bernardgeoghegan2010@u.northwestern.edu<mailto:bernardgeoghegan2010@u.northwestern.edu>> wrote: Hi SIGCISers, Can anyone advise on the origin of the term “vector graphics.” Clearly, it literally describes a production of “vectors” on the screen by a concrete line-drawing technology. However, I’m wondering if there were multiple senses in that term initially. Specifically, looking through SAGE documentation from the 1950s and 1960s, esp, accounts of if operator displays, “vector” describes the physical trajectory of planes on the display. As SAGE was also a key source for early graphical interfaces, I’m wondering of the term “vector graphics” had a double connotation, as an analogy between the flight paths and the manner of illustrating graphics. It’s not earth shaking, but it’s etymologically neat-o if one can trace “vector graphics” to multiple connotations at its coinage. Best, b _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.sigcis.org_pipermail_members-2Dsigcis.org_&d=DwICAg&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=xQ27Xpp_1MwpAfMieAaTnw&m=DkJto07C57Sh_WpTn7l0S91wwJQUFA2MU75qC5tP7ik&s=oNo1PEGiWi8VY3hkFyEzi2JSKvM1slwWKv4YMS5EOeo&e= and you can change your subscription options at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.sigcis.org_listinfo.cgi_members-2Dsigcis.org&d=DwICAg&c=slrrB7dE8n7gBJbeO0g-IQ&r=xQ27Xpp_1MwpAfMieAaTnw&m=DkJto07C57Sh_WpTn7l0S91wwJQUFA2MU75qC5tP7ik&s=byIP0_qOK1xdN_QvBKMktUyDVvzxvsez77jH6QbAGBc&e= _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org -- Sam P. Kellogg he/him // MCC, NYU<http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/mcc/> // samkellogg.com<http://samkellogg.com>
participants (8)
-
Bernard Geoghegan -
Brian E Carpenter -
Chuck House -
Jacob Gaboury -
Joris van Zundert -
Rory Solomon -
Sam Kellogg -
Win Treese