I was hoping that the list might help me with the source of a quotation. Marvin Minsky is often quoted as having said the following: "Can you imagine that they used to have libraries where the books didn't talk to each other?" I have not been able to find any actual source for this. Citations, if they exist, are circular, citing back to a source that itself provides not citation. Does anybody know of a published source for this quotation? Thanks, Mary -- Mary Murrell marymurrell@fastmail.fm
Mary Murrell <marymurrell@fastmail.fm> writes:
I was hoping that the list might help me with the source of a quotation.
Marvin Minsky is often quoted as having said the following: "Can you imagine that they used to have libraries where the books didn't talk to each other?"
I have not been able to find any actual source for this. Citations, if they exist, are circular, citing back to a source that itself provides not citation.
Edward Feigenbaum says it was a comment Minsky made during a brainstorming session in a working group Feigenbaum had convened on the future of the library. Feigenbaum briefly recounts that discussion in: E.A. Feigenbaum (1989). Toward the library of the future. Long Range Planning 22(1): 118-123. https://saltworks.stanford.edu/assets/rw131vv2050.pdf The relevant paragraph: "I have been describing the first era and the coming second era of knowledge systems. Now let me move on to what I call the far side of the dream. I like to use slogans and, needing a slogan, I created one for this purpose: 'The Library of the Future'. In the U.S.A. we have now a small national working group discussing large knowledge bases and the library of the future, and planning the structure, the personnel, the intellectual problems and the funding for such an enormous project. This small working group includes Professor Marvin Minsky, one of the founders of the artificial intelligence field, and several other renowned individuals in the field. One day, we were having a wide-ranging discussion of the intellectual concepts behind the library of the future. We were putting ourselves into that library 50 years from now, looking back on today. Professor Minsky said something that I thought in jest, but which was quite profound. In his life out in the future, he said 'Can you imagine, they used to have libraries where the books didn't talk to each other?' The libraries of today are warehouses of passive objects. The books and journals sit on shelves waiting for us to use our intelligence to find them, to interpret them, and cause them finally to divulge their stored knowledge. The so-called 'electronic' libraries of today are no better. Their pages are pages of data files, but the electronic page images are equally passive." (p. 122) -Mark -- Mark J. Nelson Anadrome Research http://www.kmjn.org
Dear historians of information, With apologies if this question leads way before or outside anybody's area of interest. In his book "The Information," James Gleick records indifference about early telephone networks (at the start of the 20th century) from potential business clients. One is reported as saying: "If I want to send a message, I use a sounder, or employ a boy to take it" (p.189). My question is: What, in this context, is or was a "sounder"? Grateful for any replies JD Fleming -- J ames Dougal Fleming Associate Professor Department of English Simon Fraser University 778-782-4713 Burnaby -- British Columbia -- Canada. "You will be careful to keep them separate, citizen?" -- A Tale of Two Cities
One is reported as saying: "If I want to send a message, I use a sounder, or employ a boy to take it" (p.189). My question is: What, in this context, is or was a "sounder"
Telegraph. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegraph_sounder
Evan’s suggestion does seem the most plausible of the senses offered by the OED. Definition n2 is below. n1 is to do with wild swine, while n3 is to do with sounding depths of water. Tom 1. One who makes or utters a sound or sounds; one who causes something, esp. an instrument, to sound. 1591 R. Percyvall Bibliotheca Hispanica <javascript:void(0)> Dict. at Tañedor, A plaier or sounder of any instrument, cantor. 1648 H. Hexham Groot Woorden-boeck <javascript:void(0)> Een Luyder, a Ringer, a Sounder. 1809 ‘D. Knickerbocker’ Hist. N.Y. <javascript:void(0)> II. vi. iii. 100 The illustrious sun..did dart one of his most potent beams..upon the refulgent nose of this sounder of brass. 1831 Scott Count Robert ii, in Tales of my Landlord <javascript:void(0)> 4th Ser. II. 14 In the front..stood the sounder of the sacred trumpet. 1859 Dickens Tale of Two Cities <javascript:void(0)> ii. i. 34 The sounders of three-fourths of the notes in the whole gamut of Crime, were put to Death. 1591—1859(Hide quotations) <http://www.oed.com.ezproxy.lib.uwm.edu/view/Entry/185142?rskey=R48yRU&result=2&isAdvanced=false> 2. a. A telegraphic device which enables the communications or signals to be read by sound. 1860 G. B. Prescott Electr. Telegr. <javascript:void(0)> 91 Since the adoption of the method of reading by sound, another apparatus has taken the place of the register, or recording apparatus, called the sounder. 1872 F. L. Pope Telegraph <javascript:void(0)> iv. 32 The Sounder consists simply of the electro-magnet, armature and lever fixed upon a base. 1876 W. H. Preece & J. Sivewright Telegraphy <javascript:void(0)> 246 The Sounder, on account of the extreme simplicity of its mechanism, is less liable to faults than any of the other forms of instruments which are employed. attrib. 1875 E. H. Knight Pract. Dict. Mech. <javascript:void(0)> 2247/2 Sounder-magnet, the magnet which operates the sounder in the receiving apparatus. 1860—1876(Hide quotations) <http://www.oed.com.ezproxy.lib.uwm.edu/view/Entry/185142?rskey=R48yRU&result=2&isAdvanced=false> b. A telegraphist who operates or has experience with this. 1887 Daily News <javascript:void(0)> 2 May 7/3 Telegraphist (sounder) desires engagement. 1887—1887(Hide quotations) <http://www.oed.com.ezproxy.lib.uwm.edu/view/Entry/185142?rskey=R48yRU&result=2&isAdvanced=false> 3. A device or instrument which gives a signal, etc., by sounding; also, the signal so given. a1884 E. H. Knight Pract. Dict. Mech. <javascript:void(0)> Suppl. 832/1 Sounder, an alarm or call, made by closing an electric circuit. 1891 Pall Mall Gaz. <javascript:void(0)> 1 June 7/1 An electric sounder, too, is so arranged that it commences to ring if everything is correct, directly the gun is loaded and in the firing position. From: Members [mailto:members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 6:37 PM To: JD Fleming <jfleming@sfu.ca>; members <members@sigcis.org> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Gleick "sounder"
One is reported as saying: "If I want to send a message, I use a sounder, or employ a boy to take it" (p.189). My question is: What, in this context, is or was a "sounder"
Telegraph. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegraph_sounder
Done--and in record time. Thx JDF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Haigh" <thaigh@computer.org> To: "Evan Koblentz" <evan@snarc.net>, "JD Fleming" <jfleming@sfu.ca>, "members" <members@sigcis.org> Sent: Thursday, 17 March, 2016 16:43:19 Subject: RE: [SIGCIS-Members] Gleick "sounder" Evan’s suggestion does seem the most plausible of the senses offered by the OED. Definition n2 is below. n1 is to do with wild swine, while n3 is to do with sounding depths of water. Tom 1. One who makes or utters a sound or sounds; one who causes something, esp. an instrument, to sound. 1591 R. Percyvall Bibliotheca Hispanica Dict. at Tañedor , A plaier or sounder of any instrument, cantor . 1648 H. Hexham Groot Woorden-boeck Een Luyder , a Ringer, a Sounder. 1809 ‘D. Knickerbocker’ Hist. N.Y. II. vi. iii. 100 The illustrious sun..did dart one of his most potent beams..upon the refulgent nose of this sounder of brass. 1831 Scott Count Robert ii, in Tales of my Landlord 4th Ser. II. 14 In the front..stood the sounder of the sacred trumpet. 1859 Dickens Tale of Two Cities ii. i. 34 The sounders of three-fourths of the notes in the whole gamut of Crime, were put to Death. 1591—1859 (Hide quotations) 2. a. A telegraphic device which enables the communications or signals to be read by sound. 1860 G. B. Prescott Electr. Telegr. 91 Since the adoption of the method of reading by sound, another apparatus has taken the place of the register, or recording apparatus, called the sounder . 1872 F. L. Pope Telegraph iv. 32 The Sounder consists simply of the electro-magnet, armature and lever fixed upon a base. 1876 W. H. Preece & J. Sivewright Telegraphy 246 The Sounder, on account of the extreme simplicity of its mechanism, is less liable to faults than any of the other forms of instruments which are employed. attrib. 1875 E. H. Knight Pract. Dict. Mech. 2247/2 Sounder-magnet , the magnet which operates the sounder in the receiving apparatus. 1860—1876 (Hide quotations) b. A telegraphist who operates or has experience with this. 1887 Daily News 2 May 7/3 Telegraphist (sounder) desires engagement. 1887—1887 (Hide quotations) 3. A device or instrument which gives a signal, etc., by sounding; also, the signal so given. a 1884 E. H. Knight Pract. Dict. Mech. Suppl. 832/1 Sounder , an alarm or call, made by closing an electric circuit. 1891 Pall Mall Gaz. 1 June 7/1 An electric sounder, too, is so arranged that it commences to ring if everything is correct, directly the gun is loaded and in the firing position. From: Members [mailto:members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 6:37 PM To: JD Fleming <jfleming@sfu.ca>; members <members@sigcis.org> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Gleick "sounder"
One is reported as saying: "If I want to send a message, I use a sounder, or employ a boy to take it" (p.189). My question is: What, in this context, is or was a "sounder"
Telegraph. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegraph_sounder -- J ames Dougal Fleming Associate Professor Department of English Simon Fraser University 778-782-4713 Burnaby -- British Columbia -- Canada. "You will be careful to keep them separate, citizen?" -- A Tale of Two Cities
You might want to refer to our Information Age gallery with various historic examples: http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/online_science/explore_our_collections/objec... http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/online_science/explore_our_collections/objec... Best wishes, Tilly On 17 Mar 2016, at 23:43, Thomas Haigh <thaigh@computer.org<mailto:thaigh@computer.org>> wrote: Evan’s suggestion does seem the most plausible of the senses offered by the OED. Definition n2 is below. n1 is to do with wild swine, while n3 is to do with sounding depths of water. Tom 1. One who makes or utters a sound or sounds; one who causes something, esp. an instrument, to sound. 1591 R. Percyvall Bibliotheca Hispanica<javascript:void(0)> Dict. at Tañedor, A plaier or sounder of any instrument, cantor. 1648 H. Hexham Groot Woorden-boeck<javascript:void(0)> Een Luyder, a Ringer, a Sounder. 1809 ‘D. Knickerbocker’ Hist. N.Y.<javascript:void(0)> II. vi. iii. 100 The illustrious sun..did dart one of his most potent beams..upon the refulgent nose of this sounder of brass. 1831 Scott Count Robert ii, in Tales of my Landlord<javascript:void(0)> 4th Ser. II. 14 In the front..stood the sounder of the sacred trumpet. 1859 Dickens Tale of Two Cities<javascript:void(0)> ii. i. 34 The sounders of three-fourths of the notes in the whole gamut of Crime, were put to Death. 1591—1859(Hide quotations)<http://www.oed.com.ezproxy.lib.uwm.edu/view/Entry/185142?rskey=R48yRU&result=2&isAdvanced=false> 2. a. A telegraphic device which enables the communications or signals to be read by sound. 1860 G. B. Prescott Electr. Telegr.<javascript:void(0)> 91 Since the adoption of the method of reading by sound, another apparatus has taken the place of the register, or recording apparatus, called the sounder. 1872 F. L. Pope Telegraph<javascript:void(0)> iv. 32 The Sounder consists simply of the electro-magnet, armature and lever fixed upon a base. 1876 W. H. Preece & J. Sivewright Telegraphy<javascript:void(0)> 246 The Sounder, on account of the extreme simplicity of its mechanism, is less liable to faults than any of the other forms of instruments which are employed. attrib. 1875 E. H. Knight Pract. Dict. Mech.<javascript:void(0)> 2247/2 Sounder-magnet, the magnet which operates the sounder in the receiving apparatus. 1860—1876(Hide quotations)<http://www.oed.com.ezproxy.lib.uwm.edu/view/Entry/185142?rskey=R48yRU&result=2&isAdvanced=false> b. A telegraphist who operates or has experience with this. 1887 Daily News<javascript:void(0)> 2 May 7/3 Telegraphist (sounder) desires engagement. 1887—1887(Hide quotations)<http://www.oed.com.ezproxy.lib.uwm.edu/view/Entry/185142?rskey=R48yRU&result=2&isAdvanced=false> 3. A device or instrument which gives a signal, etc., by sounding; also, the signal so given. a1884 E. H. Knight Pract. Dict. Mech.<javascript:void(0)> Suppl. 832/1 Sounder, an alarm or call, made by closing an electric circuit. 1891 Pall Mall Gaz.<javascript:void(0)> 1 June 7/1 An electric sounder, too, is so arranged that it commences to ring if everything is correct, directly the gun is loaded and in the firing position. From: Members [mailto:members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 6:37 PM To: JD Fleming <jfleming@sfu.ca<mailto:jfleming@sfu.ca>>; members <members@sigcis.org<mailto:members@sigcis.org>> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Gleick "sounder"
One is reported as saying: "If I want to send a message, I use a sounder, or employ a boy to take it" (p.189). My question is: What, in this context, is or was a "sounder"
Telegraph. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegraph_sounder ________________________________ This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely by Mimecast. ________________________________ _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail and attachments are intended for the named addressee only and are confidential. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender immediately, delete the message from your computer system and destroy any copies. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not reflect the views of the Science Museum Group This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely by Mimecast. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The little town of Boyce, Virginia has a restored telegraph facility in its railroad station. I witnessed a demonstration of "sounders" at work, and it was most impressive. It is NOT anything like the tones of Morse Code that we are familiar with. To my untrained ear, it sounded like little more than random clicks. But the operators were sending messages at a high clip to one another. Here is the facebook page (couldn't find any other information): https://www.facebook.com/events/628941283848560/ Paul Ceruzzi ________________________________ From: Members [members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org] on behalf of Blyth Tilly [Tilly.Blyth@sciencemuseum.ac.uk] Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2016 12:29 PM To: JD Fleming Cc: <thaigh@computer.org>; Sigcis Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Gleick "sounder" You might want to refer to our Information Age gallery with various historic examples: http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/online_science/explore_our_collections/objec... http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/online_science/explore_our_collections/objec... Best wishes, Tilly On 17 Mar 2016, at 23:43, Thomas Haigh <thaigh@computer.org<mailto:thaigh@computer.org>> wrote: Evan’s suggestion does seem the most plausible of the senses offered by the OED. Definition n2 is below. n1 is to do with wild swine, while n3 is to do with sounding depths of water. Tom 1. One who makes or utters a sound or sounds; one who causes something, esp. an instrument, to sound. 1591 R. Percyvall Bibliotheca Hispanica<UrlBlockedError.aspx> Dict. at Tañedor, A plaier or sounder of any instrument, cantor. 1648 H. Hexham Groot Woorden-boeck<UrlBlockedError.aspx> Een Luyder, a Ringer, a Sounder. 1809 ‘D. Knickerbocker’ Hist. N.Y.<UrlBlockedError.aspx> II. vi. iii. 100 The illustrious sun..did dart one of his most potent beams..upon the refulgent nose of this sounder of brass. 1831 Scott Count Robert ii, in Tales of my Landlord<UrlBlockedError.aspx> 4th Ser. II. 14 In the front..stood the sounder of the sacred trumpet. 1859 Dickens Tale of Two Cities<UrlBlockedError.aspx> ii. i. 34 The sounders of three-fourths of the notes in the whole gamut of Crime, were put to Death. 1591—1859(Hide quotations)<http://www.oed.com.ezproxy.lib.uwm.edu/view/Entry/185142?rskey=R48yRU&result=2&isAdvanced=false> 2. a. A telegraphic device which enables the communications or signals to be read by sound. 1860 G. B. Prescott Electr. Telegr.<UrlBlockedError.aspx> 91 Since the adoption of the method of reading by sound, another apparatus has taken the place of the register, or recording apparatus, called the sounder. 1872 F. L. Pope Telegraph<UrlBlockedError.aspx> iv. 32 The Sounder consists simply of the electro-magnet, armature and lever fixed upon a base. 1876 W. H. Preece & J. Sivewright Telegraphy<UrlBlockedError.aspx> 246 The Sounder, on account of the extreme simplicity of its mechanism, is less liable to faults than any of the other forms of instruments which are employed. attrib. 1875 E. H. Knight Pract. Dict. Mech.<UrlBlockedError.aspx> 2247/2 Sounder-magnet, the magnet which operates the sounder in the receiving apparatus. 1860—1876(Hide quotations)<http://www.oed.com.ezproxy.lib.uwm.edu/view/Entry/185142?rskey=R48yRU&result=2&isAdvanced=false> b. A telegraphist who operates or has experience with this. 1887 Daily News<UrlBlockedError.aspx> 2 May 7/3 Telegraphist (sounder) desires engagement. 1887—1887(Hide quotations)<http://www.oed.com.ezproxy.lib.uwm.edu/view/Entry/185142?rskey=R48yRU&result=2&isAdvanced=false> 3. A device or instrument which gives a signal, etc., by sounding; also, the signal so given. a1884 E. H. Knight Pract. Dict. Mech.<UrlBlockedError.aspx> Suppl. 832/1 Sounder, an alarm or call, made by closing an electric circuit. 1891 Pall Mall Gaz.<UrlBlockedError.aspx> 1 June 7/1 An electric sounder, too, is so arranged that it commences to ring if everything is correct, directly the gun is loaded and in the firing position. From: Members [mailto:members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 6:37 PM To: JD Fleming <jfleming@sfu.ca<mailto:jfleming@sfu.ca>>; members <members@sigcis.org<mailto:members@sigcis.org>> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Gleick "sounder"
One is reported as saying: "If I want to send a message, I use a sounder, or employ a boy to take it" (p.189). My question is: What, in this context, is or was a "sounder"
Telegraph. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegraph_sounder ________________________________ This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely by Mimecast. ________________________________ _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org ________________________________ For updates on all Science Museum news and events sign up to our free e-newsletter at www.sciencemuseum.org.uk<http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk> This e-mail and attachments are intended for the named addressee only and are confidential. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify the sender immediately, delete the message from your computer system and destroy any copies. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not reflect the views of the Science Museum Group. This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely by Mimecast. ________________________________
participants (7)
-
Blyth Tilly -
Ceruzzi, Paul -
Evan Koblentz -
JD Fleming -
Mark J. Nelson -
Mary Murrell -
Thomas Haigh