Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa
Hello SIGCIS, I was looking for a quote I recall reading in the days of the "science wars," probably late-1990s, from a scientist saying something like: "If all the English professors got sick and we were called in then we would so an OK job teaching Shakespeare etc. based on what we know and the inherent triviality of the humanities. Whereas if the physics professors got sick then the humanities people would be completely unable to step in, because science is hard." I tried constructing Google searches and doing Amazon's search inside the book on Sokal & Bricmont's Fashionable Nonsense and similar targets, but didn't locate it. NB: I'm just looking for the source here, not for people eager to reignite the science wars by arguing for or against the proposition. Best wishes, Tom
Tom, I'm fairly certain that you are paraphrasing ideas from C. P. Snow's The Two Cultures, though the way I remember it is that scientists have some knowledge of literature whereas people in the humanities can't tell you what the laws of thermodynamics are. But maybe you have something else in mind. Best, Lee On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello SIGCIS,
I was looking for a quote I recall reading in the days of the “science wars,” probably late-1990s, from a scientist saying something like: “If all the English professors got sick and we were called in then we would so an OK job teaching Shakespeare etc. based on what we know and the inherent triviality of the humanities. Whereas if the physics professors got sick then the humanities people would be completely unable to step in, because science is hard.”
I tried constructing Google searches and doing Amazon’s search inside the book on Sokal & Bricmont’s *Fashionable Nonsense* and similar targets, but didn’t locate it.
NB: I’m just looking for the source here, not for people eager to reignite the science wars by arguing for or against the proposition.
Best wishes,
Tom
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/ listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
-- Assistant Professor Program on Science and Technology Studies College of Arts and Letters Stevens Institute of Technology Hoboken, NJ 07030 leevinsel.com Twitter: @STS_News
It’s definitely a two cultures argument, but I think the quote was an updated version and nastier. Though I could be conflating after all this time. In the bigger picture I guess the difference between Snow and the 1990s dialog was that Snow was bemoaning the separation of science and the humanities and limited engagement with science by non-specialists. Whereas in the science wars, scientists were complaining that humanities people were pretending to engage with science but messing it up or challenging its authority. Tom From: Lee Vinsel [mailto:lee.vinsel@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 2:35 PM To: Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com> Cc: sigcis <members@sigcis.org> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa Tom, I'm fairly certain that you are paraphrasing ideas from C. P. Snow's The Two Cultures, though the way I remember it is that scientists have some knowledge of literature whereas people in the humanities can't tell you what the laws of thermodynamics are. But maybe you have something else in mind. Best, Lee On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com <mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com> > wrote: Hello SIGCIS, I was looking for a quote I recall reading in the days of the “science wars,” probably late-1990s, from a scientist saying something like: “If all the English professors got sick and we were called in then we would so an OK job teaching Shakespeare etc. based on what we know and the inherent triviality of the humanities. Whereas if the physics professors got sick then the humanities people would be completely unable to step in, because science is hard.” I tried constructing Google searches and doing Amazon’s search inside the book on Sokal & Bricmont’s Fashionable Nonsense and similar targets, but didn’t locate it. NB: I’m just looking for the source here, not for people eager to reignite the science wars by arguing for or against the proposition. Best wishes, Tom _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org <http://sigcis.org> , the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org -- Assistant Professor Program on Science and Technology Studies College of Arts and Letters Stevens Institute of Technology Hoboken, NJ 07030 leevinsel.com <http://leevinsel.com> Twitter: @STS_News
Dear Tom, why, no, your quote rests on an anti-Snow type of argument. Snow's plea is for mutual understanding and dialogue. He tries to avert the possible disdain for the humanities. His crucial point is that we should all know the second law of thermodynamics as an assett of our cultural baggage, just the same as we know quote from Shakespeare. Gerard ________________________________ Van: Members [members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org] namens Thomas Haigh [thomas.haigh@gmail.com] Verzonden: vrijdag 21 oktober 2016 22:08 Aan: 'Lee Vinsel' CC: 'sigcis' Onderwerp: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa It’s definitely a two cultures argument, but I think the quote was an updated version and nastier. Though I could be conflating after all this time. In the bigger picture I guess the difference between Snow and the 1990s dialog was that Snow was bemoaning the separation of science and the humanities and limited engagement with science by non-specialists. Whereas in the science wars, scientists were complaining that humanities people were pretending to engage with science but messing it up or challenging its authority. Tom From: Lee Vinsel [mailto:lee.vinsel@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 2:35 PM To: Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com> Cc: sigcis <members@sigcis.org> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa Tom, I'm fairly certain that you are paraphrasing ideas from C. P. Snow's The Two Cultures, though the way I remember it is that scientists have some knowledge of literature whereas people in the humanities can't tell you what the laws of thermodynamics are. But maybe you have something else in mind. Best, Lee On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com<mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com>> wrote: Hello SIGCIS, I was looking for a quote I recall reading in the days of the “science wars,” probably late-1990s, from a scientist saying something like: “If all the English professors got sick and we were called in then we would so an OK job teaching Shakespeare etc. based on what we know and the inherent triviality of the humanities. Whereas if the physics professors got sick then the humanities people would be completely unable to step in, because science is hard.” I tried constructing Google searches and doing Amazon’s search inside the book on Sokal & Bricmont’s Fashionable Nonsense and similar targets, but didn’t locate it. NB: I’m just looking for the source here, not for people eager to reignite the science wars by arguing for or against the proposition. Best wishes, Tom _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org -- Assistant Professor Program on Science and Technology Studies College of Arts and Letters Stevens Institute of Technology Hoboken, NJ 07030 leevinsel.com<http://leevinsel.com> Twitter: @STS_News
… and let us not forget the many who straddle both disciplines: MDs with art history degrees; historians who are also engineers, airline pilots with MBAs… perhaps the whole dichotomy needs a refresh? Whatever line you’re on ("techies" vs "fuzzies”), Feynam’s advice is best: “Specialization is for insects.” :_) Dag On Oct 21, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Alberts, Gerard <G.Alberts@uva.nl<mailto:G.Alberts@uva.nl>> wrote: Dear Tom, why, no, your quote rests on an anti-Snow type of argument. Snow's plea is for mutual understanding and dialogue. He tries to avert the possible disdain for the humanities. His crucial point is that we should all know the second law of thermodynamics as an assett of our cultural baggage, just the same as we know quote from Shakespeare. Gerard ________________________________ Van: Members [members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org<mailto:members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org>] namens Thomas Haigh [thomas.haigh@gmail.com<mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com>] Verzonden: vrijdag 21 oktober 2016 22:08 Aan: 'Lee Vinsel' CC: 'sigcis' Onderwerp: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa It’s definitely a two cultures argument, but I think the quote was an updated version and nastier. Though I could be conflating after all this time. In the bigger picture I guess the difference between Snow and the 1990s dialog was that Snow was bemoaning the separation of science and the humanities and limited engagement with science by non-specialists. Whereas in the science wars, scientists were complaining that humanities people were pretending to engage with science but messing it up or challenging its authority. Tom From: Lee Vinsel [mailto:lee.vinsel@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 2:35 PM To: Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com<mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com>> Cc: sigcis <members@sigcis.org<mailto:members@sigcis.org>> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa Tom, I'm fairly certain that you are paraphrasing ideas from C. P. Snow's The Two Cultures, though the way I remember it is that scientists have some knowledge of literature whereas people in the humanities can't tell you what the laws of thermodynamics are. But maybe you have something else in mind. Best, Lee On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com<mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com>> wrote: Hello SIGCIS, I was looking for a quote I recall reading in the days of the “science wars,” probably late-1990s, from a scientist saying something like: “If all the English professors got sick and we were called in then we would so an OK job teaching Shakespeare etc. based on what we know and the inherent triviality of the humanities. Whereas if the physics professors got sick then the humanities people would be completely unable to step in, because science is hard.” I tried constructing Google searches and doing Amazon’s search inside the book on Sokal & Bricmont’sFashionable Nonsense and similar targets, but didn’t locate it. NB: I’m just looking for the source here, not for people eager to reignite the science wars by arguing for or against the proposition. Best wishes, Tom _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org/>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org -- Assistant Professor Program on Science and Technology Studies College of Arts and Letters Stevens Institute of Technology Hoboken, NJ 07030 leevinsel.com<http://leevinsel.com/> Twitter: @STS_News _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
Hi, Note that "Specialization is for insects." is a Robert A. Heinlein quote (from Time Enough for Love apparently). As Abraham Lincoln said "There are lots of poorly attributed quotes on the internet." ;) Feynman was notably dismissive of academic philosophy at least and so not necessarily one of the bridge builders. I wanted to say the idea of an MIT humanities walk out puts me in mind of Douglas Adams idea of a philosophers threatening to strike ("Who would that inconvenience") in response to the construction of the super computer Deep Thought. Where the computer's intended use raises the specter of rendering philosophers obsolete by answering the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything. -- Yours Truly, Allan Olley, PhD http://individual.utoronto.ca/fofound/ On Fri, 21 Oct 2016, Dag Spicer wrote:
… and let us not forget the many who straddle both disciplines: MDs with art history degrees; historians who are also engineers, airline pilots with MBAs… perhaps the whole dichotomy needs a refresh? Whatever line you’re on ("techies" vs "fuzzies”), Feynam’s advice is best: “Specialization is for insects.”
:_)
Dag
On Oct 21, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Alberts, Gerard <G.Alberts@uva.nl<mailto:G.Alberts@uva.nl>> wrote:
Dear Tom, why, no, your quote rests on an anti-Snow type of argument. Snow's plea is for mutual understanding and dialogue. He tries to avert the possible disdain for the humanities. His crucial point is that we should all know the second law of thermodynamics as an assett of our cultural baggage, just the same as we know quote from Shakespeare. Gerard ________________________________ Van: Members [members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org<mailto:members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org>] namens Thomas Haigh [thomas.haigh@gmail.com<mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com>] Verzonden: vrijdag 21 oktober 2016 22:08 Aan: 'Lee Vinsel' CC: 'sigcis' Onderwerp: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa
It’s definitely a two cultures argument, but I think the quote was an updated version and nastier. Though I could be conflating after all this time.
In the bigger picture I guess the difference between Snow and the 1990s dialog was that Snow was bemoaning the separation of science and the humanities and limited engagement with science by non-specialists. Whereas in the science wars, scientists were complaining that humanities people were pretending to engage with science but messing it up or challenging its authority.
Tom
From: Lee Vinsel [mailto:lee.vinsel@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 2:35 PM To: Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com<mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com>> Cc: sigcis <members@sigcis.org<mailto:members@sigcis.org>> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa
Tom, I'm fairly certain that you are paraphrasing ideas from C. P. Snow's The Two Cultures, though the way I remember it is that scientists have some knowledge of literature whereas people in the humanities can't tell you what the laws of thermodynamics are. But maybe you have something else in mind. Best, Lee
On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com<mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com>> wrote: Hello SIGCIS,
I was looking for a quote I recall reading in the days of the “science wars,” probably late-1990s, from a scientist saying something like: “If all the English professors got sick and we were called in then we would so an OK job teaching Shakespeare etc. based on what we know and the inherent triviality of the humanities. Whereas if the physics professors got sick then the humanities people would be completely unable to step in, because science is hard.”
I tried constructing Google searches and doing Amazon’s search inside the book on Sokal & Bricmont’sFashionable Nonsense and similar targets, but didn’t locate it.
NB: I’m just looking for the source here, not for people eager to reignite the science wars by arguing for or against the proposition.
Best wishes,
Tom
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org/>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
-- Assistant Professor Program on Science and Technology Studies College of Arts and Letters Stevens Institute of Technology Hoboken, NJ 07030 leevinsel.com<http://leevinsel.com/> Twitter: @STS_News _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
Feynman was definitely dismissive of academic philosophy. There seems to be somewhat of a tradition of famous physicists, whose work is "philosophical" in obvious ways, schizophrenically beating up on philosophy. Lawrence Krauss does it here <http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/04/has-physics-made-philosophy-and-religion-obsolete/256203/>, Neil deGrass Tyson here <https://scientiasalon.wordpress.com/2014/05/12/neil-degrasse-tyson-and-the-value-of-philosophy/>, Steven Weinberg in "Against Philosophy," etc. Yarden On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 10:31 PM, Allan Olley <allan.olley@utoronto.ca> wrote:
Hi, Note that "Specialization is for insects." is a Robert A. Heinlein quote (from Time Enough for Love apparently). As Abraham Lincoln said "There are lots of poorly attributed quotes on the internet." ;) Feynman was notably dismissive of academic philosophy at least and so not necessarily one of the bridge builders. I wanted to say the idea of an MIT humanities walk out puts me in mind of Douglas Adams idea of a philosophers threatening to strike ("Who would that inconvenience") in response to the construction of the super computer Deep Thought. Where the computer's intended use raises the specter of rendering philosophers obsolete by answering the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything.
-- Yours Truly, Allan Olley, PhD
http://individual.utoronto.ca/fofound/
On Fri, 21 Oct 2016, Dag Spicer wrote:
… and let us not forget the many who straddle both disciplines: MDs with
art history degrees; historians who are also engineers, airline pilots with MBAs… perhaps the whole dichotomy needs a refresh? Whatever line you’re on ("techies" vs "fuzzies”), Feynam’s advice is best: “Specialization is for insects.”
:_)
Dag
On Oct 21, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Alberts, Gerard <G.Alberts@uva.nl<mailto: G.Alberts@uva.nl>> wrote:
Dear Tom, why, no, your quote rests on an anti-Snow type of argument. Snow's plea is for mutual understanding and dialogue. He tries to avert the possible disdain for the humanities. His crucial point is that we should all know the second law of thermodynamics as an assett of our cultural baggage, just the same as we know quote from Shakespeare. Gerard ________________________________ Van: Members [members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org<mailto:members-bounces@lis ts.sigcis.org>] namens Thomas Haigh [thomas.haigh@gmail.com<mailto: thomas.haigh@gmail.com>] Verzonden: vrijdag 21 oktober 2016 22:08 Aan: 'Lee Vinsel' CC: 'sigcis' Onderwerp: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa
It’s definitely a two cultures argument, but I think the quote was an updated version and nastier. Though I could be conflating after all this time.
In the bigger picture I guess the difference between Snow and the 1990s dialog was that Snow was bemoaning the separation of science and the humanities and limited engagement with science by non-specialists. Whereas in the science wars, scientists were complaining that humanities people were pretending to engage with science but messing it up or challenging its authority.
Tom
From: Lee Vinsel [mailto:lee.vinsel@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 2:35 PM To: Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com<mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com>> Cc: sigcis <members@sigcis.org<mailto:members@sigcis.org>> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa
Tom, I'm fairly certain that you are paraphrasing ideas from C. P. Snow's The Two Cultures, though the way I remember it is that scientists have some knowledge of literature whereas people in the humanities can't tell you what the laws of thermodynamics are. But maybe you have something else in mind. Best, Lee
On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com <mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com>> wrote: Hello SIGCIS,
I was looking for a quote I recall reading in the days of the “science wars,” probably late-1990s, from a scientist saying something like: “If all the English professors got sick and we were called in then we would so an OK job teaching Shakespeare etc. based on what we know and the inherent triviality of the humanities. Whereas if the physics professors got sick then the humanities people would be completely unable to step in, because science is hard.”
I tried constructing Google searches and doing Amazon’s search inside the book on Sokal & Bricmont’sFashionable Nonsense and similar targets, but didn’t locate it.
NB: I’m just looking for the source here, not for people eager to reignite the science wars by arguing for or against the proposition.
Best wishes,
Tom
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org/>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/piperm ail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
-- Assistant Professor Program on Science and Technology Studies College of Arts and Letters Stevens Institute of Technology Hoboken, NJ 07030 leevinsel.com<http://leevinsel.com/> Twitter: @STS_News _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/piperm ail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/ listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
Thanks Allan. And here is the full quote: A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -Robert A. Heinlein — Dag On Oct 21, 2016, at 7:31 PM, Allan Olley <allan.olley@utoronto.ca<mailto:allan.olley@utoronto.ca>> wrote: Hi, Note that "Specialization is for insects." is a Robert A. Heinlein quote (from Time Enough for Love apparently). As Abraham Lincoln said "There are lots of poorly attributed quotes on the internet." ;) Feynman was notably dismissive of academic philosophy at least and so not necessarily one of the bridge builders. I wanted to say the idea of an MIT humanities walk out puts me in mind of Douglas Adams idea of a philosophers threatening to strike ("Who would that inconvenience") in response to the construction of the super computer Deep Thought. Where the computer's intended use raises the specter of rendering philosophers obsolete by answering the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything. -- Yours Truly, Allan Olley, PhD http://individual.utoronto.ca/fofound/ On Fri, 21 Oct 2016, Dag Spicer wrote: … and let us not forget the many who straddle both disciplines: MDs with art history degrees; historians who are also engineers, airline pilots with MBAs… perhaps the whole dichotomy needs a refresh? Whatever line you’re on ("techies" vs "fuzzies”), Feynam’s advice is best: “Specialization is for insects.” :_) Dag On Oct 21, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Alberts, Gerard <G.Alberts@uva.nl<mailto:G.Alberts@uva.nl>> wrote: Dear Tom, why, no, your quote rests on an anti-Snow type of argument. Snow's plea is for mutual understanding and dialogue. He tries to avert the possible disdain for the humanities. His crucial point is that we should all know the second law of thermodynamics as an assett of our cultural baggage, just the same as we know quote from Shakespeare. Gerard ________________________________ Van: Members [members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org<mailto:members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org>] namens Thomas Haigh [thomas.haigh@gmail.com<mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com>] Verzonden: vrijdag 21 oktober 2016 22:08 Aan: 'Lee Vinsel' CC: 'sigcis' Onderwerp: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa It’s definitely a two cultures argument, but I think the quote was an updated version and nastier. Though I could be conflating after all this time. In the bigger picture I guess the difference between Snow and the 1990s dialog was that Snow was bemoaning the separation of science and the humanities and limited engagement with science by non-specialists. Whereas in the science wars, scientists were complaining that humanities people were pretending to engage with science but messing it up or challenging its authority. Tom From: Lee Vinsel [mailto:lee.vinsel@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 2:35 PM To: Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com<mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com>> Cc: sigcis <members@sigcis.org<mailto:members@sigcis.org>> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa Tom, I'm fairly certain that you are paraphrasing ideas from C. P. Snow's The Two Cultures, though the way I remember it is that scientists have some knowledge of literature whereas people in the humanities can't tell you what the laws of thermodynamics are. But maybe you have something else in mind. Best, Lee On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com<mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com>> wrote: Hello SIGCIS, I was looking for a quote I recall reading in the days of the “science wars,” probably late-1990s, from a scientist saying something like: “If all the English professors got sick and we were called in then we would so an OK job teaching Shakespeare etc. based on what we know and the inherent triviality of the humanities. Whereas if the physics professors got sick then the humanities people would be completely unable to step in, because science is hard.” I tried constructing Google searches and doing Amazon’s search inside the book on Sokal & Bricmont’sFashionable Nonsense and similar targets, but didn’t locate it. NB: I’m just looking for the source here, not for people eager to reignite the science wars by arguing for or against the proposition. Best wishes, Tom _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org/>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org -- Assistant Professor Program on Science and Technology Studies College of Arts and Letters Stevens Institute of Technology Hoboken, NJ 07030 leevinsel.com<http://leevinsel.com/> Twitter: @STS_News _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
Warning: I've been a Heinlein fan for most of my life. "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- R. Heinlein, Time Enough For Love. G. Putnam's Sons, 1973. On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 7:31 PM, Allan Olley <allan.olley@utoronto.ca> wrote:
Hi, Note that "Specialization is for insects." is a Robert A. Heinlein quote (from Time Enough for Love apparently). As Abraham Lincoln said "There are lots of poorly attributed quotes on the internet." ;) Feynman was notably dismissive of academic philosophy at least and so not necessarily one of the bridge builders. I wanted to say the idea of an MIT humanities walk out puts me in mind of Douglas Adams idea of a philosophers threatening to strike ("Who would that inconvenience") in response to the construction of the super computer Deep Thought. Where the computer's intended use raises the specter of rendering philosophers obsolete by answering the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything.
-- Yours Truly, Allan Olley, PhD
http://individual.utoronto.ca/fofound/
On Fri, 21 Oct 2016, Dag Spicer wrote:
… and let us not forget the many who straddle both disciplines: MDs with
art history degrees; historians who are also engineers, airline pilots with MBAs… perhaps the whole dichotomy needs a refresh? Whatever line you’re on ("techies" vs "fuzzies”), Feynam’s advice is best: “Specialization is for insects.”
:_)
Dag
On Oct 21, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Alberts, Gerard <G.Alberts@uva.nl<mailto: G.Alberts@uva.nl>> wrote:
Dear Tom, why, no, your quote rests on an anti-Snow type of argument. Snow's plea is for mutual understanding and dialogue. He tries to avert the possible disdain for the humanities. His crucial point is that we should all know the second law of thermodynamics as an assett of our cultural baggage, just the same as we know quote from Shakespeare. Gerard ________________________________ Van: Members [members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org<mailto:members-bounces@lis ts.sigcis.org>] namens Thomas Haigh [thomas.haigh@gmail.com<mailto: thomas.haigh@gmail.com>] Verzonden: vrijdag 21 oktober 2016 22:08 Aan: 'Lee Vinsel' CC: 'sigcis' Onderwerp: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa
It’s definitely a two cultures argument, but I think the quote was an updated version and nastier. Though I could be conflating after all this time.
In the bigger picture I guess the difference between Snow and the 1990s dialog was that Snow was bemoaning the separation of science and the humanities and limited engagement with science by non-specialists. Whereas in the science wars, scientists were complaining that humanities people were pretending to engage with science but messing it up or challenging its authority.
Tom
From: Lee Vinsel [mailto:lee.vinsel@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 2:35 PM To: Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com<mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com>> Cc: sigcis <members@sigcis.org<mailto:members@sigcis.org>> Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa
Tom, I'm fairly certain that you are paraphrasing ideas from C. P. Snow's The Two Cultures, though the way I remember it is that scientists have some knowledge of literature whereas people in the humanities can't tell you what the laws of thermodynamics are. But maybe you have something else in mind. Best, Lee
On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Thomas Haigh <thomas.haigh@gmail.com <mailto:thomas.haigh@gmail.com>> wrote: Hello SIGCIS,
I was looking for a quote I recall reading in the days of the “science wars,” probably late-1990s, from a scientist saying something like: “If all the English professors got sick and we were called in then we would so an OK job teaching Shakespeare etc. based on what we know and the inherent triviality of the humanities. Whereas if the physics professors got sick then the humanities people would be completely unable to step in, because science is hard.”
I tried constructing Google searches and doing Amazon’s search inside the book on Sokal & Bricmont’sFashionable Nonsense and similar targets, but didn’t locate it.
NB: I’m just looking for the source here, not for people eager to reignite the science wars by arguing for or against the proposition.
Best wishes,
Tom
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-- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu> Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org> Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org> University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."
Hi Tom This is in Gross and Levitt's /Higher Superstition/, page 243: "If, taking a fanciful hypothesis, the humanities department of MIT (a bastion, by the way, of left-wing rectitude) were to walk out in a huff..." Best James On 21 Oct 16 20:32, Thomas Haigh wrote:
Hello SIGCIS,
I was looking for a quote I recall reading in the days of the “science wars,” probably late-1990s, from a scientist saying something like: “If all the English professors got sick and we were called in then we would so an OK job teaching Shakespeare etc. based on what we know and the inherent triviality of the humanities. Whereas if the physics professors got sick then the humanities people would be completely unable to step in, because science is hard.”
I tried constructing Google searches and doing Amazon’s search inside the book on Sokal & Bricmont’s /Fashionable Nonsense/ and similar targets, but didn’t locate it.
NB: I’m just looking for the source here, not for people eager to reignite the science wars by arguing for or against the proposition.
Best wishes,
Tom
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
Thanks James, For the benefit of the list: "If, taking a fanciful hypothesis, the humanities department of MIT (a bastion, by the way, of left-wing rectitude) were to walk out in a huff, the scientific faculty could, at need and with enough released time, patch together a humanities curriculum, to be taught by the scientists themselves. It would have obvious gaps and rough spots, to be sure, and it might with some regularity prove inane but on the whole it would be, we imagine, no worse than operative. What the opposite situation-a walkout by the scientists-would produce as the humanities department tried to cope with the demand for science education, we leave the reader's imagination.. The notion that scientists and engineers will always accept as axiomatic the competence and indispensability for higher education of humanists and social scientists is altogether too smug." My searches for terms like "teach" and "English" and "sick" went just around the words here. In that sense it's cattier than I remembered - the humanists are walking out in a huff rather than being hit by a plague. Best wishes, Tom From: Members [mailto:members-bounces@lists.sigcis.org] On Behalf Of James Sumner Sent: Friday, October 21, 2016 3:04 PM To: members@lists.sigcis.org Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Science wars quote that scientists can teach English but not vice versa Hi Tom This is in Gross and Levitt's Higher Superstition, page 243: "If, taking a fanciful hypothesis, the humanities department of MIT (a bastion, by the way, of left-wing rectitude) were to walk out in a huff..." Best James On 21 Oct 16 20:32, Thomas Haigh wrote: Hello SIGCIS, I was looking for a quote I recall reading in the days of the "science wars," probably late-1990s, from a scientist saying something like: "If all the English professors got sick and we were called in then we would so an OK job teaching Shakespeare etc. based on what we know and the inherent triviality of the humanities. Whereas if the physics professors got sick then the humanities people would be completely unable to step in, because science is hard." I tried constructing Google searches and doing Amazon's search inside the book on Sokal & Bricmont's Fashionable Nonsense and similar targets, but didn't locate it. NB: I'm just looking for the source here, not for people eager to reignite the science wars by arguing for or against the proposition. Best wishes, Tom _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
Hi Tom, Sokal and Bricmont is available here: https://monoskop.org/images/5/53/Sokal_Alan_Bricmont_Jean_Fashionable_Nonsen... Dag -- Dag Spicer Senior Curator Computer History Museum Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing 1401 North Shoreline Boulevard Mountain View, CA 94043-1311 Tel: +1 650 810 1035 Fax: +1 650 810 1055 On Oct 21, 2016, at 1:04 PM, James Sumner <james.sumner@manchester.ac.uk<mailto:james.sumner@manchester.ac.uk>> wrote: Hi Tom This is in Gross and Levitt's Higher Superstition, page 243: "If, taking a fanciful hypothesis, the humanities department of MIT (a bastion, by the way, of left-wing rectitude) were to walk out in a huff..." Best James On 21 Oct 16 20:32, Thomas Haigh wrote: Hello SIGCIS, I was looking for a quote I recall reading in the days of the “science wars,” probably late-1990s, from a scientist saying something like: “If all the English professors got sick and we were called in then we would so an OK job teaching Shakespeare etc. based on what we know and the inherent triviality of the humanities. Whereas if the physics professors got sick then the humanities people would be completely unable to step in, because science is hard.” I tried constructing Google searches and doing Amazon’s search inside the book on Sokal & Bricmont’s Fashionable Nonsense and similar targets, but didn’t locate it. NB: I’m just looking for the source here, not for people eager to reignite the science wars by arguing for or against the proposition. Best wishes, Tom _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org/>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org<http://sigcis.org/>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org
participants (8)
-
Alberts, Gerard -
Allan Olley -
Dag Spicer -
Ian S. King -
James Sumner -
Lee Vinsel -
Thomas Haigh -
Yarden Katz