Email inventor: Help me set the record straight for the WP
Hello everyone, Exciting news! If you read the response from the Washington Post ombudsman, you may remember that it mentioned that the post "has invited Ayyadurai and MIT to write a response to all the readers who wrote in to denounce the story. That also is an excellent way to address the dispute, and enhance the discussion. That will be appearing in coming days." I've just been asked by Emi Kolawole to prepare a piece disputing Ayyadurai's claim and laying out the actual historical consensus on the invention of email. This will presumably run alongside his defense of his position. Not sure about length or format yet. So, who wants to help me get it right? To avoid spamming the list too much, maybe reply to me directly unless you are confident your post will be of general interest to the list. Here are a few areas where I'd like to pin things down more and would welcome assistance. 1) Does anyone have a usage of "email" or "e-mail" prior to 1980? I haven't looked seriously at this. 2) If I had space to mention 6 or 8 milestones in the development of "modern email" what would they be? Say a sentence, a date, and maybe a person or two for each. I'm thinking something like a. CTSS and other timesharing university systems, b. ARPANET network mail, c. Proprietary commercial email systems d. SMTP over TCP/IP, e. desktop clients, f. Notes g. MIME, h. webmail. 3) Does anyone know MIT job titles? Ayyadurai claims to be a "Faculty Lecturer in Biological Engineering" at MIT and this has been widely reported and even survived recent upheavals on his Wikipedia page. This seemed rather tautological to me, as lecturer is not usually a faculty position in the USA. Googling "Faculty Lecturer" MIT gives no other individuals holding this title. One of his personal pages at MIT includes the title, http://web.mit.edu/be/people/ayyadurai.shtml although he does not appear on a list of faculty in Biological Engineering http://web.mit.edu/be/people/alphabetical.shtml. He is listed on another page http://web.mit.edu/be/people/index.shtml as "Research/Teaching Staff". Doing a "people" search from the MIT web page, which pulls official institutional data, gives him only as a Visiting Lecturer (a job title I do understand) in Comparative Media Studies. So does the position of "Faculty Lecturer" even exist at MIT? Tom
Hi everyone, Tom, that's great news. For what it's worth (and perhaps others here can chime in with their thoughts), I'd say that keeping the milestones to 4 would probably serve our side of the story better. Short and sweet points of historical information that support an easily graspable overall thesis will grab the casual reader. I'd also like to resist the urge to go on a credential hunt--I think that quibbling with Ayyadurai's formal title at MIT will only detract from the points we'd like to see the public absorb. If you'd like a second pair of eyes on the piece, I'd be happy to help. Indeed, maybe we, as a group, could offer a vetting of the piece if you're comfortable with making it into a collaborative SIGCIS endeavor over the list. Not only might it give the resulting piece more weight (to be signed by the main collective of historians on computing history) but it would also be a great way to further enhance the SIGCIS's public exposure. Best, Marie _______________ Marie Hicks, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of History of Technology Lewis Department of the Humanities Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago, IL mhicks1@iit.edu twitter: @histoftech www.mariehicks.net On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Thomas Haigh <thaigh@computer.org> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Exciting news! If you read the response from the Washington Post ombudsman, you may remember that it mentioned that the post “has invited Ayyadurai and MIT to write a response to all the readers who wrote in to denounce the story. That also is an excellent way to address the dispute, and enhance the discussion. That will be appearing in coming days.”
I’ve just been asked by Emi Kolawole to prepare a piece disputing Ayyadurai’s claim and laying out the actual historical consensus on the invention of email. This will presumably run alongside his defense of his position. Not sure about length or format yet.
So, who wants to help me get it right? To avoid spamming the list too much, maybe reply to me directly unless you are confident your post will be of general interest to the list.
Here are a few areas where I’d like to pin things down more and would welcome assistance.
1) Does anyone have a usage of “email” or “e-mail” prior to 1980? I haven’t looked seriously at this.
2) If I had space to mention 6 or 8 milestones in the development of “modern email” what would they be? Say a sentence, a date, and maybe a person or two for each. I’m thinking something like
a. CTSS and other timesharing university systems,
b. ARPANET network mail,
c. Proprietary commercial email systems
d. SMTP over TCP/IP,
e. desktop clients,
f. Notes
g. MIME,
h. webmail.
3) Does anyone know MIT job titles? Ayyadurai claims to be a “Faculty Lecturer in Biological Engineering” at MIT and this has been widely reported and even survived recent upheavals on his Wikipedia page. This seemed rather tautological to me, as lecturer is not usually a faculty position in the USA. Googling “Faculty Lecturer” MIT gives no other individuals holding this title. One of his personal pages at MIT includes the title, http://web.mit.edu/be/people/ayyadurai.shtml although he does not appear on a list of faculty in Biological Engineering http://web.mit.edu/be/people/alphabetical.shtml. He is listed on another page http://web.mit.edu/be/people/index.shtml as “Research/Teaching Staff”. Doing a “people” search from the MIT web page, which pulls official institutional data, gives him only as a Visiting Lecturer (a job title I do understand) in Comparative Media Studies. So does the position of “Faculty Lecturer” even exist at MIT?
Tom
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members
I agree with Marie that a simpler account would be better. Maybe 1) CTSS / time-sharing systems 2) ARPANET mail (the @ sign makes a nice anecdote) 3) Commercial e-mail systems 4) MIME or webmail I did a quick Google Books search for "email" or "e-mail" in the range 1960-80, and the first few pages of hits were positives - mis-dated or some kind of transcription error. Inconclusive, but it suggests that neither term was in wide use before 1980. On the other hand, there are many hits on "electronic mail". Chris ________________________________________ From: members-bounces@sigcis.org [members-bounces@sigcis.org] On Behalf Of Marie Hicks [mhicks1@iit.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:06 PM To: sigcis Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Email inventor: Help me set the record straight for the WP Hi everyone, Tom, that's great news. For what it's worth (and perhaps others here can chime in with their thoughts), I'd say that keeping the milestones to 4 would probably serve our side of the story better. Short and sweet points of historical information that support an easily graspable overall thesis will grab the casual reader. I'd also like to resist the urge to go on a credential hunt--I think that quibbling with Ayyadurai's formal title at MIT will only detract from the points we'd like to see the public absorb. If you'd like a second pair of eyes on the piece, I'd be happy to help. Indeed, maybe we, as a group, could offer a vetting of the piece if you're comfortable with making it into a collaborative SIGCIS endeavor over the list. Not only might it give the resulting piece more weight (to be signed by the main collective of historians on computing history) but it would also be a great way to further enhance the SIGCIS's public exposure. Best, Marie _______________ Marie Hicks, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of History of Technology Lewis Department of the Humanities Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago, IL mhicks1@iit.edu twitter: @histoftech www.mariehicks.net On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Thomas Haigh <thaigh@computer.org> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Exciting news! If you read the response from the Washington Post ombudsman, you may remember that it mentioned that the post “has invited Ayyadurai and MIT to write a response to all the readers who wrote in to denounce the story. That also is an excellent way to address the dispute, and enhance the discussion. That will be appearing in coming days.”
I’ve just been asked by Emi Kolawole to prepare a piece disputing Ayyadurai’s claim and laying out the actual historical consensus on the invention of email. This will presumably run alongside his defense of his position. Not sure about length or format yet.
So, who wants to help me get it right? To avoid spamming the list too much, maybe reply to me directly unless you are confident your post will be of general interest to the list.
Here are a few areas where I’d like to pin things down more and would welcome assistance.
1) Does anyone have a usage of “email” or “e-mail” prior to 1980? I haven’t looked seriously at this.
2) If I had space to mention 6 or 8 milestones in the development of “modern email” what would they be? Say a sentence, a date, and maybe a person or two for each. I’m thinking something like
a. CTSS and other timesharing university systems,
b. ARPANET network mail,
c. Proprietary commercial email systems
d. SMTP over TCP/IP,
e. desktop clients,
f. Notes
g. MIME,
h. webmail.
3) Does anyone know MIT job titles? Ayyadurai claims to be a “Faculty Lecturer in Biological Engineering” at MIT and this has been widely reported and even survived recent upheavals on his Wikipedia page. This seemed rather tautological to me, as lecturer is not usually a faculty position in the USA. Googling “Faculty Lecturer” MIT gives no other individuals holding this title. One of his personal pages at MIT includes the title, http://web.mit.edu/be/people/ayyadurai.shtml although he does not appear on a list of faculty in Biological Engineering http://web.mit.edu/be/people/alphabetical.shtml. He is listed on another page http://web.mit.edu/be/people/index.shtml as “Research/Teaching Staff”. Doing a “people” search from the MIT web page, which pulls official institutional data, gives him only as a Visiting Lecturer (a job title I do understand) in Comparative Media Studies. So does the position of “Faculty Lecturer” even exist at MIT?
Tom
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members
This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members
Ray Tomlinson says, I believe, that the SDS 940 system had email before he did his demo with Tenex systems. We had a 940 at BBN while Ray et al.were developing TENEX. So that's another pre-networked email system, like CTSS but slightly later. it seems plausible that electronic email came to be called email in parallel with other things coming to be called e-something, e.g., e-business, I.e., first we talked about electronic mail and then people e'ed it. I doubt some guy we never heard of was the source of this idiom. Sent from my iPad On Feb 28, 2012, at 2:32 PM, "McDonald, Christopher" <cmcdonald@ecfs.org> wrote:
I agree with Marie that a simpler account would be better. Maybe
1) CTSS / time-sharing systems
2) ARPANET mail (the @ sign makes a nice anecdote)
3) Commercial e-mail systems
4) MIME or webmail
I did a quick Google Books search for "email" or "e-mail" in the range 1960-80, and the first few pages of hits were positives - mis-dated or some kind of transcription error. Inconclusive, but it suggests that neither term was in wide use before 1980.
On the other hand, there are many hits on "electronic mail".
Chris
________________________________________ From: members-bounces@sigcis.org [members-bounces@sigcis.org] On Behalf Of Marie Hicks [mhicks1@iit.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:06 PM To: sigcis Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Email inventor: Help me set the record straight for the WP
Hi everyone,
Tom, that's great news. For what it's worth (and perhaps others here can chime in with their thoughts), I'd say that keeping the milestones to 4 would probably serve our side of the story better. Short and sweet points of historical information that support an easily graspable overall thesis will grab the casual reader.
I'd also like to resist the urge to go on a credential hunt--I think that quibbling with Ayyadurai's formal title at MIT will only detract from the points we'd like to see the public absorb.
If you'd like a second pair of eyes on the piece, I'd be happy to help. Indeed, maybe we, as a group, could offer a vetting of the piece if you're comfortable with making it into a collaborative SIGCIS endeavor over the list. Not only might it give the resulting piece more weight (to be signed by the main collective of historians on computing history) but it would also be a great way to further enhance the SIGCIS's public exposure.
Best,
Marie _______________ Marie Hicks, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of History of Technology Lewis Department of the Humanities Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago, IL mhicks1@iit.edu twitter: @histoftech www.mariehicks.net
On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Thomas Haigh <thaigh@computer.org> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Exciting news! If you read the response from the Washington Post ombudsman, you may remember that it mentioned that the post “has invited Ayyadurai and MIT to write a response to all the readers who wrote in to denounce the story. That also is an excellent way to address the dispute, and enhance the discussion. That will be appearing in coming days.”
I’ve just been asked by Emi Kolawole to prepare a piece disputing Ayyadurai’s claim and laying out the actual historical consensus on the invention of email. This will presumably run alongside his defense of his position. Not sure about length or format yet.
So, who wants to help me get it right? To avoid spamming the list too much, maybe reply to me directly unless you are confident your post will be of general interest to the list.
Here are a few areas where I’d like to pin things down more and would welcome assistance.
1) Does anyone have a usage of “email” or “e-mail” prior to 1980? I haven’t looked seriously at this.
2) If I had space to mention 6 or 8 milestones in the development of “modern email” what would they be? Say a sentence, a date, and maybe a person or two for each. I’m thinking something like
a. CTSS and other timesharing university systems,
b. ARPANET network mail,
c. Proprietary commercial email systems
d. SMTP over TCP/IP,
e. desktop clients,
f. Notes
g. MIME,
h. webmail.
3) Does anyone know MIT job titles? Ayyadurai claims to be a “Faculty Lecturer in Biological Engineering” at MIT and this has been widely reported and even survived recent upheavals on his Wikipedia page. This seemed rather tautological to me, as lecturer is not usually a faculty position in the USA. Googling “Faculty Lecturer” MIT gives no other individuals holding this title. One of his personal pages at MIT includes the title, http://web.mit.edu/be/people/ayyadurai.shtml although he does not appear on a list of faculty in Biological Engineering http://web.mit.edu/be/people/alphabetical.shtml. He is listed on another page http://web.mit.edu/be/people/index.shtml as “Research/Teaching Staff”. Doing a “people” search from the MIT web page, which pulls official institutional data, gives him only as a Visiting Lecturer (a job title I do understand) in Comparative Media Studies. So does the position of “Faculty Lecturer” even exist at MIT?
Tom
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members
This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members
Hello everyone,
Exciting news! If you read the response from the Washington Post ombudsman, you may remember that it mentioned that the post "has invited Ayyadurai and MIT to write a response to all the readers who wrote in to denounce the story. That also is an excellent way to address the dispute, and enhance
discussion. That will be appearing in coming days."
I've just been asked by Emi Kolawole to prepare a piece disputing Ayyadurai's claim and laying out the actual historical consensus on the invention of email. This will presumably run alongside his defense of his position. Not sure about length or format yet.
So, who wants to help me get it right? To avoid spamming the list too much, maybe reply to me directly unless you are confident your post will be of general interest to the list.
Here are a few areas where I'd like to pin things down more and would welcome assistance.
1) Does anyone have a usage of "email" or "e-mail" prior to 1980? I haven't looked seriously at this.
2) If I had space to mention 6 or 8 milestones in the development of "modern email" what would they be? Say a sentence, a date, and maybe a person or two for each. I'm thinking something like
a. CTSS and other timesharing university systems,
b. ARPANET network mail,
c. Proprietary commercial email systems
d. SMTP over TCP/IP,
e. desktop clients,
f. Notes
g. MIME,
h. webmail.
3) Does anyone know MIT job titles? Ayyadurai claims to be a "Faculty Lecturer in Biological Engineering" at MIT and this has been widely reported and even survived recent upheavals on his Wikipedia page. This seemed rather tautological to me, as lecturer is not usually a faculty position in the USA. Googling "Faculty Lecturer" MIT gives no other individuals holding
Thanks Chris and Marie, I've received around a dozen other messages off list, so thanks to all of those as well. If time permits I'll look into posting a draft online which people can then sign in support prior to publication as Marie suggests. Couple of updates. Apparently the pieces will run online, with possible print pickup but not promised. Length around 1,500 words which will allow for some depth. Deadline is "as long as you need" at this point. So maybe 4 milestones as Chris suggests with a paragraph on each in the text and some others just as bullets in a table. The benefit of having more milestones in bullet form is to sketch some of the space between the 1970s and email as the readers know it. Also to convey the point that there were indeed a lot of crucial incremental inventions that fed into the stream of development, but none of these were made by Ayyadurai. Re Marie's other point, the job title issue would almost certainly not make the article, as it would seem very petty to the public. Ayyadurai's credibility was certainly boosted by many reports describing him as an "MIT professor. "Faculty Lecturer" was just something that jumped out at me as the word "faculty" has a very specific meaning within American universities. Lecturer/visiting lecturer is a non-faculty job category that many institutions use for a range of academic staff functions, and it can be dressed up with variant informal titles. On the other hand, being a faculty member at a place like MIT has some very real privileges and responsibility and I suspect that the actual faculty members guard them jealously. So you can't just attach the word "faculty" to a job at whim. Still, MIT is proudly idiosyncratic in a number of areas which is why I wondered about local usage. Tom -----Original Message----- From: members-bounces@sigcis.org [mailto:members-bounces@sigcis.org] On Behalf Of McDonald, Christopher Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 4:33 PM To: Marie Hicks; sigcis Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Email inventor: Help me set the record straight for the WP I agree with Marie that a simpler account would be better. Maybe 1) CTSS / time-sharing systems 2) ARPANET mail (the @ sign makes a nice anecdote) 3) Commercial e-mail systems 4) MIME or webmail I did a quick Google Books search for "email" or "e-mail" in the range 1960-80, and the first few pages of hits were positives - mis-dated or some kind of transcription error. Inconclusive, but it suggests that neither term was in wide use before 1980. On the other hand, there are many hits on "electronic mail". Chris ________________________________________ From: members-bounces@sigcis.org [members-bounces@sigcis.org] On Behalf Of Marie Hicks [mhicks1@iit.edu] Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:06 PM To: sigcis Subject: Re: [SIGCIS-Members] Email inventor: Help me set the record straight for the WP Hi everyone, Tom, that's great news. For what it's worth (and perhaps others here can chime in with their thoughts), I'd say that keeping the milestones to 4 would probably serve our side of the story better. Short and sweet points of historical information that support an easily graspable overall thesis will grab the casual reader. I'd also like to resist the urge to go on a credential hunt--I think that quibbling with Ayyadurai's formal title at MIT will only detract from the points we'd like to see the public absorb. If you'd like a second pair of eyes on the piece, I'd be happy to help. Indeed, maybe we, as a group, could offer a vetting of the piece if you're comfortable with making it into a collaborative SIGCIS endeavor over the list. Not only might it give the resulting piece more weight (to be signed by the main collective of historians on computing history) but it would also be a great way to further enhance the SIGCIS's public exposure. Best, Marie _______________ Marie Hicks, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of History of Technology Lewis Department of the Humanities Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago, IL mhicks1@iit.edu twitter: @histoftech www.mariehicks.net On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Thomas Haigh <thaigh@computer.org> wrote: the this
title. One of his personal pages at MIT includes the title, http://web.mit.edu/be/people/ayyadurai.shtml although he does not appear on a list of faculty in Biological Engineering http://web.mit.edu/be/people/alphabetical.shtml. He is listed on another page http://web.mit.edu/be/people/index.shtml as "Research/Teaching Staff". Doing a "people" search from the MIT web page, which pulls official institutional data, gives him only as a Visiting Lecturer (a job title I do understand) in Comparative Media Studies. So does the position of "Faculty Lecturer" even exist at MIT?
Tom
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members
This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members
re first use, see http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_the_word_email_enter_the_dictionary Computer world July 1982. Sent from my iPad On Feb 28, 2012, at 2:06 PM, Marie Hicks <mhicks1@iit.edu> wrote:
Hi everyone,
Tom, that's great news. For what it's worth (and perhaps others here can chime in with their thoughts), I'd say that keeping the milestones to 4 would probably serve our side of the story better. Short and sweet points of historical information that support an easily graspable overall thesis will grab the casual reader.
I'd also like to resist the urge to go on a credential hunt--I think that quibbling with Ayyadurai's formal title at MIT will only detract from the points we'd like to see the public absorb.
If you'd like a second pair of eyes on the piece, I'd be happy to help. Indeed, maybe we, as a group, could offer a vetting of the piece if you're comfortable with making it into a collaborative SIGCIS endeavor over the list. Not only might it give the resulting piece more weight (to be signed by the main collective of historians on computing history) but it would also be a great way to further enhance the SIGCIS's public exposure.
Best,
Marie _______________ Marie Hicks, Ph.D. Assistant Professor of History of Technology Lewis Department of the Humanities Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago, IL mhicks1@iit.edu twitter: @histoftech www.mariehicks.net
On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Thomas Haigh <thaigh@computer.org> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Exciting news! If you read the response from the Washington Post ombudsman, you may remember that it mentioned that the post “has invited Ayyadurai and MIT to write a response to all the readers who wrote in to denounce the story. That also is an excellent way to address the dispute, and enhance the discussion. That will be appearing in coming days.”
I’ve just been asked by Emi Kolawole to prepare a piece disputing Ayyadurai’s claim and laying out the actual historical consensus on the invention of email. This will presumably run alongside his defense of his position. Not sure about length or format yet.
So, who wants to help me get it right? To avoid spamming the list too much, maybe reply to me directly unless you are confident your post will be of general interest to the list.
Here are a few areas where I’d like to pin things down more and would welcome assistance.
1) Does anyone have a usage of “email” or “e-mail” prior to 1980? I haven’t looked seriously at this.
2) If I had space to mention 6 or 8 milestones in the development of “modern email” what would they be? Say a sentence, a date, and maybe a person or two for each. I’m thinking something like
a. CTSS and other timesharing university systems,
b. ARPANET network mail,
c. Proprietary commercial email systems
d. SMTP over TCP/IP,
e. desktop clients,
f. Notes
g. MIME,
h. webmail.
3) Does anyone know MIT job titles? Ayyadurai claims to be a “Faculty Lecturer in Biological Engineering” at MIT and this has been widely reported and even survived recent upheavals on his Wikipedia page. This seemed rather tautological to me, as lecturer is not usually a faculty position in the USA. Googling “Faculty Lecturer” MIT gives no other individuals holding this title. One of his personal pages at MIT includes the title, http://web.mit.edu/be/people/ayyadurai.shtml although he does not appear on a list of faculty in Biological Engineering http://web.mit.edu/be/people/alphabetical.shtml. He is listed on another page http://web.mit.edu/be/people/index.shtml as “Research/Teaching Staff”. Doing a “people” search from the MIT web page, which pulls official institutional data, gives him only as a Visiting Lecturer (a job title I do understand) in Comparative Media Studies. So does the position of “Faculty Lecturer” even exist at MIT?
Tom
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members
This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members
participants (4)
-
dave.walden.family＠gmail.com -
Marie Hicks -
McDonald, Christopher -
Thomas Haigh