Issason, Acknowledgements, and Crowdsourcing
Though we are lucky enough to be able to talk to many people that experienced the events, first hand, I have found that interviews done 30, 40 or 50 years after the fact is fraught with the difficulty of people remembering exactly what happened. Many people “remember” what has been most frequently reported over the past decade or so. Researchers in Civil War history have found the same thing and are more and more relying upon contemporary evidence such as journals, newspapers and letters. regards, Mike Willegal
At 07:08 AM 10/8/2014, you wrote:
Though we are lucky enough to be able to talk to many people that experienced the events, first hand, I have found that interviews done 30, 40 or 50 years after the fact is fraught with the difficulty of people remembering exactly what happened. Many people "remember" what has been most frequently reported over the past decade or so.
I think it is likely such people often remember their own evolving stories of what happened more than what has frequently been reported more generally. (For instance, in the Internet domain I know better than many of the frequently reported oversimplifications of how things happened, but I also probably over estimate my role in my head and my stories told to interviewers). However, since so many people are still around from electronic digital computing history, a scholar might interview several of them, note inconsistencies, and get them to talk to each other to sort it out. They are not unlikely to have contemporaneous documents in their cellars or attics, which they can go get to prove their point and perhaps discover their incorrectness.
"I have found that interviews done 30, 40 or 50 years after the fact is fraught with the difficulty of people remembering exactly what happened. Many people “remember” what has been most frequently reported over the past decade or so." That's a very good point, but it opens up a much larger sets of issues. In my experience, people don't recount what happened, but recreate a version of events that make sense to them based on what they think they did, what sort of things the questioner is interested in, what they can remember, what others have said, what the circumstances of the retelling are... etc, etc - Alessandro Portelli and other oral historians explain this far better than I, but memories are impressions of the past never exact accounts of what happened and that's how we need to read and use them, with the understanding gained from other sources wherever possible. Of course, the team aspect of science and technology projects, where individuals only get to see small parts of much bigger and more complex projects and often don't appreciate how their work intermeshes with others in detail are probably far more complicated than issues encountered by oral historians in other fields. What individuals think they did and what their actual contributions are can be quite complicated as few people get to see the whole thing! Cheers, Tom Dr Thomas Lean -- An Oral History of the Electricity Supply Industry / An Oral History of British Science National Life Stories The British Library http://www.bl.uk/voices-of-science ________________________________________ From: members-bounces@sigcis.org [members-bounces@sigcis.org] on behalf of Mike Willegal [mike@willegal.net] Sent: 08 October 2014 12:08 To: members@sigcis.org Subject: [SIGCIS-Members] Issason, Acknowledgements, and Crowdsourcing Though we are lucky enough to be able to talk to many people that experienced the events, first hand, I have found that interviews done 30, 40 or 50 years after the fact is fraught with the difficulty of people remembering exactly what happened. Many people “remember” what has been most frequently reported over the past decade or so. Researchers in Civil War history have found the same thing and are more and more relying upon contemporary evidence such as journals, newspapers and letters. regards, Mike Willegal _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members ****************************************************************************************************************** Experience the British Library online at www.bl.uk<http://www.bl.uk/> The British Library’s latest Annual Report and Accounts : www.bl.uk/aboutus/annrep/index.html<http://www.bl.uk/aboutus/annrep/index.html> Help the British Library conserve the world's knowledge. Adopt a Book. www.bl.uk/adoptabook<http://www.bl.uk/adoptabook> The Library's St Pancras site is WiFi - enabled ***************************************************************************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the postmaster@bl.uk<mailto:postmaster@bl.uk> : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or copied without the sender's consent. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. ***************************************************************************************************************** Think before you print
On Oct 8, 2014, at 1:08 PM, Mike Willegal <mike@willegal.net> wrote:
Though we are lucky enough to be able to talk to many people that experienced the events, first hand, I have found that interviews done 30, 40 or 50 years after the fact is fraught with the difficulty of people remembering exactly what happened. Many people “remember” what has been most frequently reported over the past decade or so. Researchers in Civil War history have found the same thing and are more and more relying upon contemporary evidence such as journals, newspapers and letters.
now i am challenged to pick the right subject, but i guess this 5cents fit here best - even i want to see this as part of the historian&journalist discussion, also. i am interested to find out how to work together better, and how to challenge the memory of my interview partners but also what has been said and written already by historians and journalists alike. so i want to add here what i have learned as a journalist: sometimes it helps to bring two different views to the table. during my journey to find out what europe did or did not in regard to building computer networks i once managed to bring maurice allègre (politician) together with louis pouzin for an interview on the european informatics network. what made a difference and changed the whole conversation were the following 30 seconds http://nomatic.org/static/antville/audio/files/ein_recalling.mp3 all the best, mariann ps. thanks for that discussion!
regards, Mike Willegal _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members
sometimes it helps to bring two different views to the table.
Or more than two -- see the discussions of various topics of many people on the internet-history list, or see my report on one of the wiwiw.org get-togethers, what Andreu called a "collective memory experiment": http://walden-family.com/ieee/2010-arpanet-pioneers.pdf -- home address: 12 Linden Rd., E. Sandwich, MA 02537 home ph=508-888-7655; cell ph = 503-757-3137 (often don't carry it) email address: dave@walden-family.com; website: <http://www.walden-family.com/bbn/>http://www.walden-family.com/
On Oct 8, 2014, at 3:23 PM, Dave Walden <dave.walden.family@gmail.com> wrote:
sometimes it helps to bring two different views to the table.
Or more than two -- see the discussions of various topics of many people on the internet-history list, or see my report on one of the wiwiw.org get-togethers, what Andreu called a "collective memory experiment": http://walden-family.com/ieee/2010-arpanet-pioneers.pdf
sure! thanks for the pointer. didn't know that andreu managed to organize this meeting. in europe we failed in doing so. all the best, mariann
-- home address: 12 Linden Rd., E. Sandwich, MA 02537 home ph=508-888-7655; cell ph = 503-757-3137 (often don't carry it) email address: dave@walden-family.com; website: http :// www.walden-family.com/
On Wed, 8 Oct 2014, Dave Walden wrote:
Or more than two -- see the discussions of various topics of many people on the internet-history list, or see my report on one of the wiwiw.org get-togethers, what Andreu called a "collective memory experiment": http://walden-family.com/ieee/2010-arpanet-pioneers.pdf
Where can the wiwiw interviews be found? (At least two are characters in my book and I'd like to compare the interviews with my own research.) I cannot find the interviews on the website and the website's contact email address bounced with User unknown. Maybe they are in the book "Como creamos internet"?
On Oct 9, 2014, at 5:23 PM, "Jeremy C. Reed" <reed@reedmedia.net> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2014, Dave Walden wrote:
Or more than two -- see the discussions of various topics of many people on the internet-history list, or see my report on one of the wiwiw.org get-togethers, what Andreu called a "collective memory experiment": http://walden-family.com/ieee/2010-arpanet-pioneers.pdf
Where can the wiwiw interviews be found? (At least two are characters in my book and I'd like to compare the interviews with my own research.) I cannot find the interviews on the website and the website's contact email address bounced with User unknown. Maybe they are in the book "Como creamos internet"?_______________________________________________
i am not sure either, but i already asked andreu what happened with the recording and if it can be found online somewhere. best, mariann
This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members
Though we are lucky enough to be able to talk to many people that experienced the events, first hand, I have found that interviews done 30, 40 or 50 years after the fact is fraught with the difficulty of people remembering exactly what happened. Many people “remember” what has been most frequently reported over the past decade or so. Researchers in Civil War history have found the same thing and are more and more relying upon contemporary evidence such as journals, newspapers and letters. Chinese proverb: “The palest ink is better than the best memory.” Dag -- Dag Spicer Senior Curator Computer History Museum Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing 1401 North Shoreline Boulevard Mountain View, CA 94043-1311 Tel: +1 650 810 1035 Fax: +1 650 810 1055 Twitter: @ComputerHistory On Oct 8, 2014, at 6:14 AM, mariann unterluggauer <mariann@nomatic.org<mailto:mariann@nomatic.org>> wrote: On Oct 8, 2014, at 1:08 PM, Mike Willegal <mike@willegal.net<mailto:mike@willegal.net>> wrote: Though we are lucky enough to be able to talk to many people that experienced the events, first hand, I have found that interviews done 30, 40 or 50 years after the fact is fraught with the difficulty of people remembering exactly what happened. Many people “remember” what has been most frequently reported over the past decade or so. Researchers in Civil War history have found the same thing and are more and more relying upon contemporary evidence such as journals, newspapers and letters. now i am challenged to pick the right subject, but i guess this 5cents fit here best - even i want to see this as part of the historian&journalist discussion, also. i am interested to find out how to work together better, and how to challenge the memory of my interview partners but also what has been said and written already by historians and journalists alike. so i want to add here what i have learned as a journalist: sometimes it helps to bring two different views to the table. during my journey to find out what europe did or did not in regard to building computer networks i once managed to bring maurice allègre (politician) together with louis pouzin for an interview on the european informatics network. what made a difference and changed the whole conversation were the following 30 seconds http://nomatic.org/static/antville/audio/files/ein_recalling.mp3 all the best, mariann ps. thanks for that discussion! regards, Mike Willegal _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org<mailto:members@sigcis.org>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org<mailto:members@sigcis.org>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members
On Wed, 8 Oct 2014, Mike Willegal wrote:
Though we are lucky enough to be able to talk to many people that experienced the events, first hand, I have found that interviews done 30, 40 or 50 years after the fact is fraught with the difficulty of people remembering exactly what happened. Many people ?remember? what has been most frequently reported over the past decade or so. Researchers in Civil War history have found the same thing and are more and more relying upon contemporary evidence such as journals, newspapers and letters.
For the book I am authoring, I started keeping track of mistakes, such as wrong dates and misspelled names, in my sources, including from previous "history" articles and books and my own interviews. I have found only around 20 mistakes. In some cases, I have found that my interviewees have misstated facts and dates (in most cases from the events they personally participated in the 1970s and 1980s). I have gone back to the interview subjects with my other cited facts and they have agreed with me, but they state that they don't remember. Some of the mistakes are in the contemporary documents (such as misspelled surnames in court documents) or history papers having wrong dates or misarranged chronologies (such as saying some software was invented after it was shipped) even when only a couple years removed from the events. Do you have any advice on how to document history mistakes, so later researchers don't hit the same issues -- or so later historians don't follow the wrong path? Some ideas I have considered are to add footnotes or comments to my bibliography that explain that the cited source or even sources misspelled some name or stated a wrong date and then explain briefly where the correct or assumed correct details came from. I don't think I want to explain about the mistakes in the content itself as it will be distracting. A different type of mistake is where someone acknowledges someone more significantly than they deserve or maybe more than the recipient believes. In other words, taking more credit and giving more credit than is due. For example, for over 30 years, for a software technology, various "stories", corresponding release notes, and histories said a developer had invented the work. When I interviewed him, he told me he didn't know why the developer who really did the good work gave him the credit but he wanted me to be clear in my work that the other person was the proponent and key inventor behind the technology. I wasn't able to interview the other person, but since my contact did fully partipate in this software technology, I plan to use his version of the story. Explaining about the different versions of the story may be distracting in my book. (But also thinking about it from another view -- maybe both of them wanted to credit the other.) For what it is worth, the person who documented the credit is well known for acknowledging many others in his detailed software release notes, interviews, and documentation. It has been very useful for me to find others to interview -- but in many cases, they told me their work was insignificant. I guess some people like to give credit to many others for their own work, which may cause mistakes in history. How do you document history mistakes? Jeremy C. Reed echo 'EhZ[h ^jjf0%%h[[Zc[Z_W$d[j%Xeeai%ZW[ced#]dk#f[d]k_d%' | \ tr '#-~' '\-.-{'
HI Jeremy, One great approach is to use a website to document errors found. Don Knuth has done this for nearly two decades for his various books. See: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/taocp.html viz. “Errata and Addenda." Seems like the best way to record and disseminate known issues with a book or other scholarly work. If you want, like Don, you can even offer to pay people a token amount for finding new errors—most people who have received one of Don’s famous checks never cash them anyway, so impressed are they that they found an error! Dag -- Dag Spicer Senior Curator Computer History Museum Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing 1401 North Shoreline Boulevard Mountain View, CA 94043-1311 Tel: +1 650 810 1035 Fax: +1 650 810 1055 Twitter: @ComputerHistory On Oct 9, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Jeremy C. Reed <reed@reedmedia.net<mailto:reed@reedmedia.net>> wrote: On Wed, 8 Oct 2014, Mike Willegal wrote: Though we are lucky enough to be able to talk to many people that experienced the events, first hand, I have found that interviews done 30, 40 or 50 years after the fact is fraught with the difficulty of people remembering exactly what happened. Many people ?remember? what has been most frequently reported over the past decade or so. Researchers in Civil War history have found the same thing and are more and more relying upon contemporary evidence such as journals, newspapers and letters. For the book I am authoring, I started keeping track of mistakes, such as wrong dates and misspelled names, in my sources, including from previous "history" articles and books and my own interviews. I have found only around 20 mistakes. In some cases, I have found that my interviewees have misstated facts and dates (in most cases from the events they personally participated in the 1970s and 1980s). I have gone back to the interview subjects with my other cited facts and they have agreed with me, but they state that they don't remember. Some of the mistakes are in the contemporary documents (such as misspelled surnames in court documents) or history papers having wrong dates or misarranged chronologies (such as saying some software was invented after it was shipped) even when only a couple years removed from the events. Do you have any advice on how to document history mistakes, so later researchers don't hit the same issues -- or so later historians don't follow the wrong path? Some ideas I have considered are to add footnotes or comments to my bibliography that explain that the cited source or even sources misspelled some name or stated a wrong date and then explain briefly where the correct or assumed correct details came from. I don't think I want to explain about the mistakes in the content itself as it will be distracting. A different type of mistake is where someone acknowledges someone more significantly than they deserve or maybe more than the recipient believes. In other words, taking more credit and giving more credit than is due. For example, for over 30 years, for a software technology, various "stories", corresponding release notes, and histories said a developer had invented the work. When I interviewed him, he told me he didn't know why the developer who really did the good work gave him the credit but he wanted me to be clear in my work that the other person was the proponent and key inventor behind the technology. I wasn't able to interview the other person, but since my contact did fully partipate in this software technology, I plan to use his version of the story. Explaining about the different versions of the story may be distracting in my book. (But also thinking about it from another view -- maybe both of them wanted to credit the other.) For what it is worth, the person who documented the credit is well known for acknowledging many others in his detailed software release notes, interviews, and documentation. It has been very useful for me to find others to interview -- but in many cases, they told me their work was insignificant. I guess some people like to give credit to many others for their own work, which may cause mistakes in history. How do you document history mistakes? Jeremy C. Reed echo 'EhZ[h ^jjf0%%h[[Zc[Z_W$d[j%Xeeai%ZW[ced#]dk#f[d]k_d%' | \ tr '#-~' '\-.-{' _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org<mailto:members@sigcis.org>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members
Jeremy, I was faced with a version of your question when we did The HP Phenomenon, Stanford Press, 2009. The issue centered around the company lore, continued to this day on HP’s website, that the company began by selling eight oscillators to Walt Disney. Cursory beginning research in HP’s archives revealed three things: 1. the number was NINE, not EIGHT 2. this was the third order, not the first 3. the sale was to Bud Hawkins at Disney Studios; Walt Disney had no idea, then or later, that such a purchase was made or who HP was. I talked with the HP archivist, and the original archivist (ex-Bell Labs, later HP archive creator and collaborator on the book The HP Way, and by then archivist at Agilent). I also traced the change to HP’s first public relations director, and five of the ‘old guard’ who zealously guarded HP reputations (who had urged us to write our book). All were unconcerned, whereas for factoids surrounding their own historical work, they were adamant and vociferous about us ‘getting it right.' So, below are the paragraphs in the opening chapter, which is matter-of-fact about NINE. The footnote (#5) is lengthy, explaining what we found. I don’t know that we handled this rightly, but this was how we solved the issue. The upshot was that HP sued me and Stanford, to ‘cease-and-desist’ because of monumental errors in the book, starting with claiming it is NINE, not EIGHT. The result of that skirmish was that the Stanford Press folk were delighted, saying this will quadruple sales, if HP says it is banned. The suit was dropped, and HP these days uses the book in their executive training, so they’ve relaxed. The chapter inclusion, pp. 9-10 (red emphasis for this note) The HP saga began with a clever but simple idea: to insert a small lightbulb into one side of a circuit as the resistance element, rather than a standard resistor. Whether Bill Hewlett understood the probable effect ahead of time is unimportant—he instantly recognized the result when he turned it on. He had constructed an automatically controlled amplitude limiter for a resistance-capacitance signal generator. His innovation was adequate for a fifteen-page engineer’s thesis from Stanford University in 1939; it was also good enough for U.S. patent number 2,268,872.4 And it led to the Model 200A Oscillator, a brand-new product from a brand- new company named Hewlett-Packard after Hewlett won the coin toss for the right to put his name first. The first big order—$517.50 for nine units—was garnered from Walt Disney Studios in 1939, intended for use in creating and balancing stereo soundtrack music for the cartoon movie “Fantasia.” The movie was a pioneering effort, with six individual soundtracks, two mixing tracks, and a metronome track to capture Leopold Stokowski’s orchestra in very high-fidelity sound. One oscillator per track was required; HP’s new machine, offered at $54.50 versus the General Radio machines at $400 each, was an exciting find for Disney’s chief engineer Johnny (Bud) Hawkins. But as it turned out, the HP 200A didn’t have quite the frequency range desired. So Hewlett changed the capacitor and charged $3.00 more per unit, and Disney actually bought the company’s second product, the 200B. Over time, at least twenty-four variations of the lamp-stabilized oscillator would be offered for sale.5 The endnote p. 548 5. This is one of those Sherlock Holmes detective stories about which historians do battle. Every reference to the 200 oscillator history in Watt’s Current issues for the first twenty-four years of the company (notably the fifth and tenth anniversary issues, August 5, 1944, and November 1949), cites nine units for the Disney order. Oddly, when HP Measure was launched in July 1963 as a worldwide employee newsletter, the “official number” shifted inexplicably to eight rather than nine (cf. the HP twenty-fifth anniversary issue, September- October 1964[3]). David Packard, The HP Way: How Bill Hewlett and I Built Our Company (New York: HarperCollins, 1995), Packard’s autobiography, derived from the twenty-fifth anniversary article, cited eight units, each at a recollected price of $71.50. Subsequent biographers have inferred that Packard mispriced the original units, but quickly realized his error and astutely raised the price as soon as possible, from the original $54.50 to $71.50 each. The $71.50 price, however, wasn’t established until December 1940. Al Bagley, in composing the Los Altos Museum exhibit about Dave and Lucile Packard in January 2008, found Lucile Packard’s original cash ledger, in which a big shipment to Disney accounts for a sale of $517.50 for nine units at $57.50 each. The first two units (standard HP 200A’s) were sold at list price of $54.50 (to Caltech and the Radio-Television Company); Hewlett charged $3.00 more per unit to Disney and renumbered the units to the HP 200B to cover the changed capacitor and the rackmount front panel costs. The next unit, another HP 200A, was sold to MIT for $54.50. In Dave Packard and Bill Hewlett, History Documentation (Palo Alto, CA: HP TV Network, A Hewlett Family Production, 1983), Hewlett recalled that the original price was $54.40, having associated the price with the longitude of the the old Oregon Territory– Canadian dispute; his recollection was erroneous by a dime. Packard couldn’t recall the price or the association when asked. The Southwest Museum of Engineering, Computing and Communication has long insisted that nine is the right number, citing both the original salesperson, William Stancil, and the Disney archives. See Ed Sharpe, “Hewlett-Packard: The Early Years,” http://www.smecc.org/hewlett-packard,_the_early_years.htm. William V. Stancil, who had introduced Norm Neely to Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard, sold the units to Bud Hawkins at Disney through Neely Enterprises. Stancil wrote a letter dated January 18, 1989, to Bill Hewlett (which is posted on the SMECC website) that cites the nine units twice. In the fiftieth anniversary HP Measure issue, Jean Burke Hoppe devoted a half page to Stancil’s role, but omitted his reference to nine units. Hoppe, “What a Mickey Mouse Way to Start a Company” HP Measure (September-October 1989): 8–11. On Oct 9, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Jeremy C. Reed <reed@reedmedia.net> wrote:
On Wed, 8 Oct 2014, Mike Willegal wrote:
Though we are lucky enough to be able to talk to many people that experienced the events, first hand, I have found that interviews done 30, 40 or 50 years after the fact is fraught with the difficulty of people remembering exactly what happened. Many people ?remember? what has been most frequently reported over the past decade or so. Researchers in Civil War history have found the same thing and are more and more relying upon contemporary evidence such as journals, newspapers and letters.
For the book I am authoring, I started keeping track of mistakes, such as wrong dates and misspelled names, in my sources, including from previous "history" articles and books and my own interviews. I have found only around 20 mistakes. In some cases, I have found that my interviewees have misstated facts and dates (in most cases from the events they personally participated in the 1970s and 1980s). I have gone back to the interview subjects with my other cited facts and they have agreed with me, but they state that they don't remember.
Some of the mistakes are in the contemporary documents (such as misspelled surnames in court documents) or history papers having wrong dates or misarranged chronologies (such as saying some software was invented after it was shipped) even when only a couple years removed from the events.
Do you have any advice on how to document history mistakes, so later researchers don't hit the same issues -- or so later historians don't follow the wrong path? Some ideas I have considered are to add footnotes or comments to my bibliography that explain that the cited source or even sources misspelled some name or stated a wrong date and then explain briefly where the correct or assumed correct details came from.
I don't think I want to explain about the mistakes in the content itself as it will be distracting.
A different type of mistake is where someone acknowledges someone more significantly than they deserve or maybe more than the recipient believes. In other words, taking more credit and giving more credit than is due. For example, for over 30 years, for a software technology, various "stories", corresponding release notes, and histories said a developer had invented the work. When I interviewed him, he told me he didn't know why the developer who really did the good work gave him the credit but he wanted me to be clear in my work that the other person was the proponent and key inventor behind the technology. I wasn't able to interview the other person, but since my contact did fully partipate in this software technology, I plan to use his version of the story. Explaining about the different versions of the story may be distracting in my book. (But also thinking about it from another view -- maybe both of them wanted to credit the other.)
For what it is worth, the person who documented the credit is well known for acknowledging many others in his detailed software release notes, interviews, and documentation. It has been very useful for me to find others to interview -- but in many cases, they told me their work was insignificant. I guess some people like to give credit to many others for their own work, which may cause mistakes in history.
How do you document history mistakes?
Jeremy C. Reed
echo 'EhZ[h ^jjf0%%h[[Zc[Z_W$d[j%Xeeai%ZW[ced#]dk#f[d]k_d%' | \ tr '#-~' '\-.-{'
_______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members@sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/ and you can change your subscription options at http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members
participants (7)
-
Chuck House -
Dag Spicer -
Dave Walden -
Jeremy C. Reed -
Lean, Tom -
mariann unterluggauer -
Mike Willegal