<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div class="gmail_attr">(note re: this post: Andy Hertzfeld may also provide a reply)</div><div class="gmail_attr"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">From: <strong class="gmail_sendername" dir="auto">Ron Nicholson</strong><br>Date: Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 2:37 PM<br>Subject: Re: Apple II DOS question<br><br></div>My knowledge only goes back to mid-1980, after DOS 3.3 was already on the market, but at that point in time, in-depth knowledge of RWTS (read-write-track-sector) code seemed to be fairly widespread knowledge within the Apple II programmer community.</div><div><br>
An RWTS was included in the boot ROM on the Disk II controller board. Game programmer's could probably quote the necessary 6502 assembly language code required in hex needed to implement an RWTS, and then read or write an Apple II floppy without DOS. So they didn't need DOS to load their games, and they could hardcode their own customized RWTS routine directly into their game or app.<br>
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There were a vast number of schemes, using custom RWTS routines (sometimes encrypted), to render a disk format incompatible with the DOS disk copy, and then play cat and mouse against the copy apps. Andy Hertzfeld likely knows a ton more about them that I do.<br>
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Ron<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 2:09 PM Brian Berg <<a href="mailto:brianberg@gmail.com">brianberg@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>I have a query out to the cited Apple folks and a number of others, and Steve here cited two more:</div><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><i>From: <strong class="gmail_sendername" dir="auto">Steve Wozniak</strong><br>Date: Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 1:05 PM<br>Subject: Re: Apple II DOS question<br>Cc: Randy Wigginton, Andy Hertzfeld<br></i></div><i><br></i><div><i>All I can say is that this was a LONG time ago, before this practice which is common today. I never heard anyone complain about this form of copy protection. Our platform back then was a step lower, largely hardware, and our open source approach made it easy for others to understand and modify things.</i></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div>I'll keep you all posted re: other replies.</div><div><br></div><div>Brian Berg</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 1:12 PM LO*OP CENTER, INC. <<a href="mailto:lizaloop@loopcenter.org" target="_blank">lizaloop@loopcenter.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi Laine,<div><br></div><div>When I was at Personal Software (subsequently VisiCorp), we had Apple boot disks. That was in the early '80s. Maybe some of the staff from that period can help you - - try Visi- people Dan Fylstra, Brad Templeton, Bob Frankston, Dan Bricklin and others. Most of them are easy to find but let me know if you have difficulty. Of course, Woz probably knows and Daniel Kottke as well.</div><div><br></div><div>Good luck,</div><div><br></div><div>Liza</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 12:14 PM Laine Nooney <<a href="mailto:laine.nooney@gmail.com" target="_blank">laine.nooney@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi all,<div><br></div><div>Some of you may know, I've been spending my pandemic days chipping away at a software history of the Apple II (under contract with U of Chicago, hopefully forthcoming… 2023?). Anyway, I finally had a question that neither I nor my extended network of retro computing enthusiasts seems to be able to answer--and was wondering if anyone at SIGCIS might have some insight here.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I'm looking for any information available on when Apple began permitting publishers/developers to put DOS on the floppy disks of their own products, thus allowing programs to boot without need for a System Master. My understanding is that this development happened either with DOS 3.2 or DOS 3.3, but I can't actually verify when this occurred at all.<br></div><div><br></div><div>The reason this is coming up is because I'm currently working on a chapter focused on the disk copy program <i>Locksmith</i> and copy protection. Allowing developers to put DOS on their commercial disks would seem to be an extremely important development for creating increasingly sophisticated copy protection schemes. Since DOS controlled how data on a disk was read, all devs/publishers had to do to create an
uncopyable
disk was store the data to the disk in an unconventional format, and then ensure they modified the DOS on their disk to be able to read it. While the disk would run just fine, it couldn't be copied by the System Master COPY/COPYA subroutines, which assumed a standard organization for data on the disk. So while not intended to allow developers to enhance their copy protection schemes, that was certainly one of the knock on effects of allowing DOS on disk.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers to anyone who followed any of that. If anyone has a sense of how this industry level transition came about, or is even just certain of which DOS version it can be attributed to, I'd be incredibly grateful.</div><div><br></div><div>-Laine</div><div><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr" style="line-height:normal"><div dir="ltr" style="line-height:normal"><a href="http://www.lainenooney.com/" target="_blank">Laine Nooney</a></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:13px;line-height:normal"><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Assistant Professor | </span><a href="http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/mcc/" target="_blank">MCC</a> @ <span style="font-size:12.8px"><a href="http://www.nyu.edu/" target="_blank">NYU</a> | she/they</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div>-Need to make an appt? Click, don't email: <a href="https://bit.ly/2GIHuK0" target="_blank">https://bit.ly/2GIHuK0</a></div><div>-Probably typed by voice recognition, so please cherish typos</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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This email is relayed from members at <a href="http://sigcis.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">sigcis.org</a>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at <a href="http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/</a> and you can change your subscription options at <a href="http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org</a></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">Liza Loop</font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">Executive Director, LO*OP Center, Inc.</font></div><div><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">Guerneville, CA 95446</font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.loopcenter.org" target="_blank">www.loopcenter.org</a></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif">650 619 1099 (between 8 am and 10 pm Pacific time only please)</font></div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="comic sans ms, sans-serif"><br></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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