<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="color:#000000">Hi Marc, </div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:#000000"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:#000000">Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Could I ask a few follow-up questions? </div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>Nothing much like Engelbart's NLS has ever reached the mass market, and if it suddenly did today it would need to overcome 30 years of habit. </div></div></blockquote><div> </div><div><font color="#38761d"><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline">Can you say more about that? What parts of Engelbart's NLS do you think are still missing? </div> <div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline">And have they not reached the mass market because of a learning curve? Or what other potential reasons?</div></font></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>Incidentally, Doug did have quite a bit of contact with Apple in the '80s and there were people there who had huge respect for him. But there weren't many direct results. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><font color="#38761d"><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline">Do you mean that people didn't carry on his ideas at other companies like Apple? What ideas do you think were lost and why?</div> </font></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>If you want to learn more about Engelbart and the mouse, there are a lot of resources I can point you to. The bulk of the archives of his group at SRI as well as his personal papers are with us or at Stanford Libraries, and we collaborate extensively. </div><div><br></div><div><div><div>We did an event in Doug's memory last December, here's a writeup and several links: <a href="http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/chm-fellow-douglas-c-engelbart/" target="_blank">http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/chm-fellow-douglas-c-engelbart/</a></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="display:inline"><font color="#6aa84f">This writeup is wonderful. Thank you! Ted Nelson's Eulogy is also quite moving. </font></div></div><div><div class="gmail_default" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"></div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Here are some searches related to Engelbart and the mouse within our "Revolution" exhibition: <a href="http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/search?q=engelbart" target="_blank">http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/search?q=engelbart</a>, <a href="http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/search?q=mouse&x=0&y=0" target="_blank">http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/search?q=mouse&x=0&y=0</a>, </div><div><div><br></div></div><div>We also have extensive video footage of Doug in our collection, as well as a "show and tell" interview with Bill English, co-inventor of the mouse </div><div><br></div><div>If you're telling the story of the mouse the 20 years between its invention in 1964 and its popularization with the Mac is heavily focused around Xerox PARC; I can also point you to resources for that part of the history. You might also want to mention the Logitech story (they funded Engelbart's offices out of gratitude, starting in the '80s). </div><span class=""><div><br></div><div>Best, Marc</div><div><br></div><div><div><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 10px/normal Geneva"><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:medium"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 10px/normal Geneva"><font face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:medium"><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 10px/normal Geneva"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:11px"><a href="http://www.computerhistory.org/staff/Marc,Weber/" target="_blank">Marc Weber</a></span> | <a href="mailto:marc@webhistory.org" target="_blank">marc@webhistory.org</a> | <a href="tel:%2B1%20415%20282%206868" value="+14152826868" target="_blank">+1 415 282 6868</a> </div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 10px/normal Geneva">Internet History Program Founder and Curator, Computer History Museum </div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><font face="Geneva"><span style="font-size:10px">1401 N Shoreline Blvd., Mountain View CA 94043 </span></font><a href="http://computerhistory.org/nethistory" target="_blank"><font face="Geneva"><span style="font-size:10px">computerhistory.org/nethistory</span></font></a></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 10px/normal Geneva">Co-founder, Web History Center and Project, <a href="http://webhistory.org" target="_blank">webhistory.org</a> </div></span></font></div></div></div></span></div></span></span></div></div></div></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></div></div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></span><div><div><div class="h5"><br><div><div>On Sep 9, 2014, at 10:26 AM, Luisa Emmi Beck wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Thank you everyone! On a related note- I'm wondering whether anyone on the list has thoughts about the angle of my story (whether it is historically accurate and whether the design tension I'm raising is relevant and interesting to you):</div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">I'm fascinated by Doug Engelbart's early three-button mouse and chorded keyset system. Some people I've talked to say that Doug used it for almost all tasks except for when he was typing long texts- which is when he switched to using the QWERTY keyboard). When Steve Jobs commissioned IDEO to design the mouse for Lisa, he told David Kelley to only include one button. And the keyset was entirely lost. </div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">The reason most people mention is that the keyset and three-button mouse were difficult to learn. They required recall whereas the simple on-button mouse relied on drop-down menus and that the user recognize the relevant icons. But people who saw Doug use the keyset and three-button mouse said that he was much more efficient with it than anyone who relied solely on the one-button mouse and keyboard. Doug taught everyone (even secretaries, his children, etc. how to use the keyset and three-button mouse). Generally, when designing systems, Doug seems to be more focused on making devices that are <i>learnable</i> and high performance as opposed to simple (which is what Steve Jobs focused on to make Lisa with it's one-button mouse marketable). </div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">So my key questions are: </div><div><ul><li><font color="#000000">What happened to the chorded keyset? Why didn't it become popular? </font></li><li><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">What are the key differences between Doug Engelbart's and Steve Jobs design philosophy? </span></li><li><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">What (if anything) do we lose by designing systems that focus so much on <i>simplicity </i>and <i>usability</i> instead of <i>learnability</i></span></li><li>What might Doug think of the Apple products that so many of us use today? Did Apple trade high-performance systems for the sake of "usability"?</li><li>Apple products and Apple's design philosophy are everywhere today. Is there anything we’ve lost with the Apple design philosophy? Or that Doug might think we’ve lost?</li></ul></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">I would be curious to hear your thoughts about any of these points. </div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Thanks!</div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Luisa</div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 9:32 AM, Paul McJones <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:paul@mcjones.org" target="_blank">paul@mcjones.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Here’s a 15 minute promotional/instructional video from 1983, of Apple’s Lisa computer that was soon eclipsed by the Macintosh:</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><a href="http://www.guidebookgallery.org/videos/lisa1983" target="_blank">http://www.guidebookgallery.org/videos/lisa1983</a></div><div><br></div><div>By the way, this website, <a href="http://www.guidebookgallery.org/" target="_blank">GUIdebook</a> "a website dedicated to preserving and showcasing Graphical User Interfaces, as well as various materials related to them”, is filled with interesting artifacts, including a transcript of the previously-discussed 1984 Macintosh Guided Tour, a similar one for Lisa, and much, much more. The website was created by Marcin Wichary.</div><br><div><div><div><div>On Sep 8, 2014, at 8:28 PM, Luisa Emmi Beck <<a href="mailto:emmi.beck@gmail.com" target="_blank">emmi.beck@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br></div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi SIGCIS members, </div><div><br></div><div>I'm working on a radio story about the history of personal computing. </div><div><br></div><div>I would like to find instructional videos for the first Macintosh or other personal computers. The goal is to give listeners a sense for how new and incredible the idea of personal computing was in the 1970s. Does anyone on this list know of where I could find such videos? I haven't been able to find anything on YouTube but I'm hoping to be able to track down a few instructional videos (or at least the audio portion of the videos). </div><div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!<span style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"> </span></div></div><div dir="ltr">Luisa <div><br></div><div><a href="tel:%28510%29%20856.7475" value="+15108567475" target="_blank">(510) 856.7475</a><br><div><a href="http://luisabeck.com/" target="_blank">http://luisabeck.com/</a><br></div></div></div>
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_______________________________________________<br>This email is relayed from <a href="mailto:members@sigcis.org" target="_blank">members@sigcis.org</a>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at <a href="http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/" target="_blank">http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/</a> and you can change your subscription options at <a href="http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members" target="_blank">http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members</a></span></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Luisa <div><br></div><div><div><a href="tel:%28510%29%20856.7475" value="+15108567475" target="_blank">(510) 856.7475</a><br><div><a href="http://luisabeck.com/" target="_blank">http://luisabeck.com/</a><br></div></div></div></div>
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_______________________________________________<br>This email is relayed from <a href="mailto:members@sigcis.org" target="_blank">members@sigcis.org</a>, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. The list archives are at <a href="http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/" target="_blank">http://sigcis.org/pipermail/members/</a> and you can change your subscription options at <a href="http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members" target="_blank">http://sigcis.org/mailman/listinfo/members</a></blockquote></div><br></div></div><span class=""><div>
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 10px/normal Geneva"><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:medium"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 10px/normal Geneva"><font face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:medium"><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 10px/normal Geneva"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:11px"><a href="http://www.computerhistory.org/staff/Marc,Weber/" target="_blank">Marc Weber</a></span> | <a href="mailto:marc@webhistory.org" target="_blank">marc@webhistory.org</a> | <a href="tel:%2B1%20415%20282%206868" value="+14152826868" target="_blank">+1 415 282 6868</a> </div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 10px/normal Geneva">Internet History Program Founder and Curator, Computer History Museum </div><div style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><font face="Geneva"><span style="font-size:10px">1401 N Shoreline Blvd., Mountain View CA 94043 </span></font><a href="http://computerhistory.org/nethistory" target="_blank"><font face="Geneva"><span style="font-size:10px">computerhistory.org/nethistory</span></font></a></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 10px/normal Geneva">Co-founder, Web History Center and Project, <a href="http://webhistory.org" target="_blank">webhistory.org</a> </div></span></font></div></div></div></span></div></span></span></div></div></div></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div>
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<br></span></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Luisa <div><br></div><div><div>(510) 856.7475<br><div><a href="http://luisabeck.com/" target="_blank">http://luisabeck.com/</a><br></div></div></div></div>
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